Are coin dealers scared to post?

[truthteller]

I found this to be an interesting response by Android over at the PCGS forum on why dealers don't post any longer:

 

 

Monday May 05, 2003 8:43 PM (NEW!)

 

 

 

It's funny you should ask this question Mark. I met many dealers at this past weekend's show in St. Louis who have posted here in the past, and do so currently. More who have done so in the past. When I meet someone who I know posts here at a show, I always introduce myself - "Hi, I'm Android from the CU forums, nice to meet you." Well, in St. Louis, there were two dealers in particular that visibly looked frightened when I announced that I know them through the CU forums. I was surprized and saddened by their reaction. One, looking very nervous actually said "Please, whatever your complaint is, we'll fix it!" I was astonished. I had no problem with them or anyone else. There were other dealers I met who read the forums and never post, out of fear that they'll get pulled into some sort of internet witch hunt that will ruin their reputations or affect their businesses negatively for no good reason. EVERY dealer I talked to knows about the CU forums whether they post here or not. Most wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole. There is a pervasive opinion, whether legitimate or not, that these forums are inhabited by some very bitter, resentful people who have in their pasts, been taken advantage of by unethical coin dealers, and use the anonymity of the internet to continue to feed whatever burning resentments that they just won't let go of, on all dealers.

 

I'm not talking about weekend ebay sellers here, I'm talking about major, well respected, nation wide dealers who have been in business for decades. Most don't understand why some with legitimate complaints decide to post their problems in a public forum instead of handling issues privately and with civility. Most don't understand why David Hall lets this place stay open. Most don't want to expose themselves to a public flogging. Again, I was surprised by what I heard.

 

My opinion is that we may be doing ourselves a huge disservice to ourselves by creating and perpetuating this perception. We post on these forums largely for entertainment. I think that sometimes we forget that the heresay, gossip, and innuendo that entertains us so, hurts others personally, and possibly professionally. I think that we are limiting our ability to learn about our hobby by alienating some of the people who may have the most to teach us. Not to mention the fact that someone has to sell us our coins!

 

Some may disagree with my assessment, and if so, that's great. How better to understand perceptions than to discuss it? I was dismayed at some of the things that I heard, and am glad that I have this forum to share it.

 

Andy

 

 

 

Personally, I can tell you I have never sold a coin(only one to a member at cost as a favor) or bought coins from forum members. Neither did I use the forum for business, only thoughtful interaction. After almost three years on the PCGS forum, I found that the HOOLIGANS and HOODLUMS had taken over most of the insightful posts and hijacked most of them spewing garbage, downgrading other collectors as well as dealers. It became a "Clockwork Orange" of the coin business. No sane dealer would post on the PCGS forum for fear of reprecussions. When I used to blast the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons over there, the first thing they wanted to know was "what is the name of your coin store" or "who are you"? Funny thing is, I have no store, I have no retail, so BOMBS away. Finally, the callousness of the PCGS forum caught up with me, and I left, since most of the informational posts were buried among the drivel. I find that intellect takes time and thoughtfullness, but drivel pours out of some collectors mouths.

 

 

TRUTH

 

[braddick]

TRUTH- You're scaring me. Although we may disagree regarding our politics, you're DEAD ON in all other areas of opinion.

Thanks for your continued insightfulness.

[IrishMike]

At this years FUN Show I walked around with the online name on my badge. I heard from more than one dealer that they thought the CU Forum was a mine field to be avoided. There are dozen or more folk over there that jump into a thread the minute they see dealer in the title and all they do is spew invective. Glad Andy finally called them on it.

[true_grade]

I can't see why if a coin business was practicing fair grading, reasonable pricing and moral business procedures, how they could be "afraid" to converse with knowledgeable people in their chosen field of "expertise".

 

I just "retired" from MY other successful business by practicing correct evaluation, legitimate pricing for work and good customer relations. No, I did not have 100% customer satisfaction, but I did keep it in the 90%+ range. Some folks just can't be happy, even if you paid them to remedy their problem. Can most coin dealers boast of 90%, 70%, hell even 50% customer satisfaction?

 

Most can't and don't care. They just want; the little old ladies to come in with their husbands coin collection and ask how much are you going to give me for this; the "newbie" that doesn't know squat about coin grading or common dates and says I just started and I'm looking for some coins/supplies.

 

Though I don't "currently" have a dedicated shop for my coin business, I do run a nice "private" coin business from my home office.

 

Sorry for the

 

I just can't feel sorry for unscrupulous coin dealers. They dug their hole (grave), now it's time to lie in it.

 

PS In case you were wondering, I'm just 42.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dakra]

While I do agree with the assessments that have been made and have witnessed quite a few dealers getting man handled... and in some instances it should have been worked out in private... I may be wrong but the majority of the people who post at CU are collectors?

 

If the discussion was food and dealers were supermarkets, you would probably see the same "Your Milk is SOUR", "This Chicken Smells and I want to return it", "So and so gouges their prices". "A&P wouldn't let me return that smelly chicken"... "Should A&P be responsible for destorying that smelly chicken or will it come out next week as a toned (bbq) piece?" I think the complaints are much like every day life...

 

Although I have a bunch of thoughts on this, I am short on time and can only say... For every good dealer there is a bad dealer and for every customer there is a bad customer. I can't applaud the dealers who continue to post on CU for continuing to post because I have a grudge against CU and all users should just post here but seriously, the dealers that are posting at CU are showing me they will stand behind their product and take the heat if they have to.

 

-Dave

[BillJones]

I don't see a lot problem with posting messages. Most of the people who don't like me on the CU Forum collect ultra high grade modern coins. I very rarely have any of those coins for sale and would not bother with any want lists for them. As I've said many times I think a lot of that stuff is overpriced, and I don't want to get stuck with it. I also don't want to have to tell a past customer that they have been had.

 

I've sold a few things to CU board members, and I've never had any problems.

[DonHeath]

Andy,

 

Negative threads are unfortunately very popular online and seem to take on a life of their own. With so many participants with such a broad "skill" level, it takes some time for the casual reader to properly assess the credibility of the many posters. That, coupled with the anonymity afforded by the environment seem to eliminate the opportunity for fair response to many legitimate customer service issue. One of the advantages Mark Feld has (aside from his reputation), is that he has invested enough time on the boards to have some real knowledge of who the legitimate posters are, and some knowledge of their credibility in the community. Laura Sperber is another who is a numismatic treasure that adds value to the boards she frequents. There are many others. They have dedicated a large portion of their adult lives to the hobby. The reason they are held in high esteem in the online community has much to do with their investment of time and energy in the hobby and the online community. I don't believe there are many on either forum who would hesitate to buy from either Legend of Pinnacle, and I believe they are rewarded and trusted as a result of their effort.

 

I guess my point is that although I agree with your post and know online forums are indeed a potential minefield for dealers, I hope those who read this thread will understand there is a real collector presence on both forums, and they shouldn't allow the sometimes overwhelmingly negative tone of the boards to cause them to underestimate the importance of their involvement, or to assume most of us can't recognize the occasional insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Given enough time, they are easy to spot. The dealers who spend a little time here spot them too and quickly learn how seriously they are taken by the rest of the community.

 

Edited to add - BillJones, you are one I didn't mention, but I'd like to add, although I sometimes disagree with your take on certain moderns, I'd buy from you with no hesitation, and without your involvement, I doubt we'd have met. Honest opinions are hard to come by, and I always respect them when I hear them.

[cladking]

I too, have to give Billjones a lot of credit. He obviously knows a lot about the coins (tokens, medals) he collects and deals in. And while he does spend an inordinate amount of his time on the boards slamming moderns, he is probably the most knowledgeable person around about moderns who slams them. Also to his credit he usually keeps his slamming to the coins themselves rather than the integrity or sanity of those who collect them.

 

I certainly wouldn't not deal with him because of his honesty, or ability. And he certainly sells some great coins!

[TomB]

Getting back to Truth's import of Andy's post, I believe this is a more complex issue than a first glance might indicate. There are a fair number of members who strongly and stridently believe that all coin dealers are somehow nefarious and should be avoided. There are others who will believe most anything that is written by one of their fellow board members because they believe that they truly know these people and trust them greatly. There are also those who simply have no or little tact and cannot seem to understand that there are two sides to each story and especially to each conflict. Add to this the fact that I believe most members of the coin boards either don't read the threads very carefully or engage in knee-jerk reactions to what they read. Lastly, there are those people who simply want to exacerbate any problem, real or imagined, and will goad others and derail thoughtful posts or insight. In the end, what you have is a potential powder keg. For a dealer to step into this environment they must be willing to commit serious time to understand the board politics and individual poster tendancies. Most dealers have neither the time nor desire to do such, just as most collectors have neither the time nor desire to do the same thing. This puts a contributing dealer-member in a poor position since many threads will explode at the least bit of provocation, real or imagined. I sell coins occassionally to board members and have also bought coins, on occassion, from board members. I have never had a problem, however, I am careful with whom I will do business and every detail is written out before the deal is consumated. I do not blame any dealer for avoiding this landscape, especially PCGS, as there is little to gain and much to lose.

[Android]

Wow, I've been published!

 

I understand the valid points that everyone is trying to make here, and it is great that there can be discussion! Normally, I wouldn't have posted about this topic as it is never ending, particularly on the CU forums. I only wrote what I wrote because of the experience I had introducing myself to dealers at the CSNS show. I have NEVER met people for the first time, who didn't know me, who were so visibly apprehensive, almost frightened actually, simply because of an affiliation I had. It's more of a person to person rather than a dealer to collector issue for me. I'm discovering, particularly at the larger national and regional shows, that the coin industry as a small incestuous one - everyone talks and know everyone's business. Everyone knows what is said on the CU boards even if they aren't members.

 

I do appreciate and learn much about the coin business from all of the forums, including some of the "Us vs.Them" dealer threads, but I underestimated the impact that these discussions can have on people, particularly dealers. There are people behind these typed words, good and bad, but I would venture that most are pretty good. I understand that in the age of the internet, the coin business is being irrevocably changed, and that is a good thing. Although it can bring a heightened level of accountability, it can also create an atmoshere of distrust, and can damage people's reputations unjustifiably, very much the way this happens in every other public media outlet.

 

I still maintain, however, that collectors who use these forums for education and entertainment are going to miss out on a lot of cool information that can be imparted to us by those dealers who know coins and the coin business, and wish to share it. We are denying ourselves a great resource if we continue to drive the good ones away through vitriol, speculation, and assumption based on a limited, mostly sterotypical view of dealers.

 

Andy

[truthteller]

Andy,

 

Although I agree with most of what you say, here's the problem for the new collector or buyer when introduced to the forums. Who do you believe? If a new collector stumbled on to the NGC forums today, I truly believe he/she would be helped along, and guided correctly by experienced coin people. If a newbie stumbled onto the PCGS forum, he would see fights, terrible disagreements, condesending remarks, tons of incorrect information, and, in my opinion, would be lost and/or frustrated. Some of the folks over there have one thing in mind, new customers, so there is an ulterior motive. Others want to voice an opinion, good or bad, but very agressively. It reminds me of an open political convention. You enter the door and are asked, "What side are you on?" Wrong answers or opening the wrong door means instant death, right answers or the right door, they pull you aside and tried to be convinced, or coerced or cajoled. Then it becomes US versus THEM.

 

TRUTH

[LegendSteve-migration]

I have to second Andy's observation that most of the dealers I know are exceedingly wary of posting on the CU message boards. Some, however, simply lurk because they can't be bothered to expend the effort to contribute...

 

Steve

 

[MarkFeld]

I think this is an excellent, thought provoking discussion. Truth, I am glad that you posted Andy's reply here (thanks to you, too, Andy!) and I thank those who have shared their views.

 

It is, as Tom noted, a complex issue. There are many personalities, interests and agendas involved. And, the forums are communities, each with their own unique qualities.

 

There is much to be gained, by both dealers and collectors, who take the time to read and interact, and, as Don mentioned, the care to distinguish the credible posts from the non-credible ones.

 

Wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate the notion of dealers vs. collectors, as well as that of the NGC forum vs. the PCGS forum. I know, I'm dreaming, but....

[cladking]

Tomb: Excellent post and very comprehensive and accurate. Much of the problem is, as you said, that often times people don't take the time to read and understand posts. Posters often don't take the time to phrase their thoughts so they're more easily understood. Essentially much of the problem is that while the written word is good a getting ideas across, it can be poor at establishing communication. And all the nuances of a face to face encounter are lost. Many times here we'll see someone fly off the handle at a percieved slight that was most probably not even intended. This is much less likely to occur in conversation since there are so many more cues and clues to the speakers meaning.

[mrDQ-migration]

I'm curious why you didn't respond to this post over there Truthteller.

[IrishMike]

Mark, I don't see this as an NGC vs PCGS forum issue. Of late I have enjoy the discourse over here more than here. I think that comes from spending over a year posting over there and reading basically the same stuff. Certain members post continually over there about the same topics and it has just gotten tiring to read. The constant attacks on dealers, especially the legitimate dealersand are taken to task over clerical and other unimportant issues is not productive or informative other than making me glad I don't do business with them.

[truthteller]

MRDQ,

 

Like other former PCGS posters, I no longer wish to render opinions or information on the PCGS forum, only to be torn down, stomped out, ridiculed, harassed, shot at, run over, by the PCGS HOOLIGANS. The NGC forum has much more decorum, and newbies will actually learn here. I find the IQ level in the NGC forum substantially higher than PCGS.

 

TRUTH

[Julian]

I am happy to post here or there and have no qualms. I believe that all of the sincere numismatic dealers probably share my opinion.