This has got to be the weakest strike I've ever seen on a Morgan!

[HaydenTubbs]

 

 

I bought this coin for the sweet endroll toning,however I did not realize how weak the strike was until I had it in hand!

 

I really like the color,but the strike makes me want to puke.What do you think?

 

 

 

 

Hayden

[pawnee101]

Hayden, I have had several of these and it is a mint (as-made thing and really don't effect the coin grade at all)untill it gets up into higher grades, really a great coin you got there I like it!

[jgrinz]

"O" MInts are historically bad but that should not be in a 64 holder

Get a refund

[jom]

If the toning is nice enough then it can overcome a bad strike for an eye appeal point of view. I buy Buffalos all the time with weak strikes but nice color. How else would I be able to afford them otherwise? Borrow money from Whilborg?

 

jom

[RWB]

Gentlemen.

It may be of interest that most of the "weak strikes" from the New Orleans mint were the result of improper annealing of the planchets. The mint lacked an annealing furnace that could handle the quantity of silver dollar planchets the coiner needed to meet production schedules. (Too many planchets, not enough time or heat.) This resulted in many planchets being too hard and this produced coins with poor detail and also cut die life. The added stress on dies also led to early cracking of dies.

 

The Philadelphia Mint sent their annealing specialist to New Orleans in early 1899 after logging years of complaints about “poor quality dies” being sent to New Orleans. The expert discovered the problem and corrected it – at least while he was there. Within a few months after his return to Philadelphia, the New Orleans folks were back to their old ways, and silver dollar quality and die life both went down hill.

[EZ_E]

I didn't know that. So, you're saying that they heated the planchets prior to striking in order to make them softer?

[HaydenTubbs]

Gentlemen.

It may be of interest that most of the "weak strikes" from the New Orleans mint were the result of improper annealing of the planchets. The mint lacked an annealing furnace that could handle the quantity of silver dollar planchets the coiner needed to meet production schedules. (Too many planchets, not enough time or heat.) This resulted in many planchets being too hard and this produced coins with poor detail and also cut die life. The added stress on dies also led to early cracking of dies.

 

The Philadelphia Mint sent their annealing specialist to New Orleans in early 1899 after logging years of complaints about “poor quality dies” being sent to New Orleans. The expert discovered the problem and corrected it – at least while he was there. Within a few months after his return to Philadelphia, the New Orleans folks were back to their old ways, and silver dollar quality and die life both went down hill.

 

Very interesting,thanks for the info!

[RWB]

EZ-E, et al:

Yes. As blanks were cut from the strips of silver alloy, the metal became work hardened. Upsetting the rim to create a coining blank further hardened the metal. Before being struck, the planchets were run through a furnace that brought them to a cherry-red color and held them at that temperature for at least 5 minutes. They were then cooled slowly. This all had to be done in an oxygen-free atmosphere to prevent oxidation of the silver and copper in the alloy. The mints used charcoal in the furnace to absorb oxygen from around the planchets.

 

When the planchets were properly softened, the New Orleans mint could produce very nicely struck coins. But much of the time, they were too overworked to do the annealing right, so the coins ended up looking like weak strikes with incomplete detail in the high points.

 

The same applies to other coinage metals, particularly nickel alloys, which are very difficult to anneal correctly. It is this (and the concomitant excessive die wear), and not die spacing, that makes so many Buffalo nickels come with poor detail.

[IGWT]

The mints used charcoal in the furnace to absorb oxygen from around the planchets.

 

That's what "carbon spots" on a coin originally meant. Small pieces of charcoal from the annealing process remained on the die or planchet and were struck through during coining. That term, of course, has broadened to include dark spotting of all kinds.

[EZ_E]

Interesting. So, the annealing process was pre-mintage, of course. Then the planchets were allowed to cool and were then, however long afterwards, were struck. Correct?

[CarolinaCollector]

I seen many 91-O, 94-O, and 93-CC Morgans that were much, much, worse. It's a weak strike, but it's not that bad. The eagle's breast has pleanty of feathers is even a little rounded.

 

If you like the color - keep it.

[EZ_E]

 

If you like the color - keep it.

 

Heck, that bad-boy is e-bay bound knowing Herr Tubby.

[HaydenTubbs]

 

If you like the color - keep it.

 

Heck, that bad-boy is e-bay bound knowing Herr Tubby.

 

It's already there.

I would post a direct link,but I know how brutal you guys are

 

Thanks for the info guys,I didn't realize quite what would cause a weak strike like this until now.

 

 

 

Hayden

[ldhair]

Annealing is important in machine parts and tool making.

If it's cooled quickly it will be harder. This is measured in what is called Rockwell hardness. Hubs and dies are annealed to make them soft and later hardened before use in the press. This process allows a machinist to decide which part will wear the most with use.

Cool dollar.

[AlixTCat]

When we (jewelers) anneal silver, we bring it to cherry red for a few seconds then toss it into water to quench it. Not saying anyone has their facts not straight, just saying how annealing is done to soften silver in the jewelry business. Slow cooling will not produce the desired effect of relaxing the metal.

 

Jonathan

[John Martinez]

I do not know about jewelry making. I do; however, know metals, especially metals used for dies.

 

Heating, then quenching - immersing in water or oil - produces a very hard surface. There is a lower heat applied after the quench to temper the metal to a desired hardness. This process is called quenched and tempered.

 

Bringing up to a temperature then reducing the temperature over time or letting it air cool over time makes metal softer, this process is called annealing.

 

Heating it up to cherry red then throwing it in water is not annealing no matter what the metal. Jewelers may do it and call it annealing; however, as they say in East Texas, "annealing it ain't".

 

If you cold work some metals (i.e. roll out into strips, then punch it), you will induce cold work hardening and annealing may be needed before the next process. It makes sense, that in coin making, there would be an annealing process prior to being die formed. Likewise, it makes sense that there would be a weak strike if the planchet was not properly annealed.

 

28 years in metals, both ferris (i.e. steels and their alloys) and non-ferris (i.e. brass and copper) from production, to distribution, to welding - cutting - and machining it is what I bring to this discussion.

 

Now, I think I will do a closer study of coin making, both today and days past, along with the properties of gold and silver when cold-worked or formed, as this discussion has peaked my interest.

[ldhair]

I agree John.

Anyone here use a band saw of any type?

The weld on the blade is heated red hot and allowed to cool at room temp. This annealing process softens the weld and the metal around it. This lets the blade flex without breaking at the weld.

 

In coin making, annealing and hardening is a giant field to study. It has been used so many ways over the years.

On presses every piece has a spec. for hardness.

On hubs and dies the mint does all kinds of processes.

I gave up trying to understand it all.

I bet John will.

 

---------------------

Larry

[relicsncoins]

Hayden,

 

I really enjoy your photographs. Just curious what you use for photography?

 

Thanks.

[RWB]

Certain metals and alloys, including the common gold and silver alloys used in making US coins, work harden rather easily and planchets have to be softened before further use. For these alloys, unlike iron, nickel, die steel alloys and most other metals, rapid quenching of the red-hot metal softens the metal (slow cooling actually makes them harder). For example, the Saint-Gaudens MCMVII high relief coins were struck 3 times in order to bring up the design. After each of the first two strikes, the coin was heated to red, then quenched in a weak nitric acid solution. The incomplete coin was then soft enough to take more of the design from the dies.

 

The very popular extremely high relief MCMVII double eagle experimental medal-coins (from the artist's first pair of models) required 7 blows to bring up the design. The coin had to be softened between each blow as described above. During this repeated process, the copper was gradually removed from the coin's surface, leaving a thin film of nearly pure gold. Several years ago the Smithsonian conducted tests on some of it's specimens to check this, and found that the EHR coins were almost 100% gold on the surface.

[RWB]

...Part of the New Orleans mint's difficulty with planchets was also an inability to cool the red-hot planchets quickly and do this on a consistent basis. The planchets from a single silver melt could range from soft and easily die struck, to hard and difficult to strike (and damaging to the dies).

[ldhair]

EZ-E, et al:

Yes. As blanks were cut from the strips of silver alloy, the metal became work hardened. Upsetting the rim to create a coining blank further hardened the metal. Before being struck, the planchets were run through a furnace that brought them to a cherry-red color and held them at that temperature for at least 5 minutes. They were then cooled slowly.

Great info RWB but I'm still lost.

In a later post you state that cooling will harden them.

Are die steel and coin silver different?

[RWB]

Larry,

Yes, they are different.

Iron and iron alloys (die steel included) can be softened by bringing them to red-heat then slowly cooling them. If they are cooled quickly, the metal becomes hard and sometimes brittle. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Philadelphia Mint had a lot of trouble with both consistency of hardening of dies and die breakage during the hardening process. (In 1878 George Morgan noted it took 8 to 10 blows from the working hub to make one silver dollar working die, and that he could only give two blows to the die per day due to work hardening. It could take nearly a week to complete a working die!)

 

Gold and silver alloys behave opposite from iron. To soften coin silver (.900 Ag, .100 Cu) or coin gold (.900 Au, .100 Cu) the metal is brought to red-heat and then cooled very quickly.

 

I avoided mentioning specific temperatures because the mint did not have very accurate temperature measurement capability for annealing furnaces until about 1915. The difference of a few degrees can alter the results. The Melter& Refiner at the mint "eyeballed" the temperature based on color. He also used printed color guide charts to compare the metal’s color in the furnace with a calibrated chart to get the right temperature.

[John Martinez]

Thanks RWB. Like I said in my previous post, this has ticked my fancy. Can you either post here or PM me on some resources to get me started on the methods of coin manufacturing. I only want to add to my information on metals and how the properties are affected by cold working and heat treating.

 

Like I said, I do not know about silver and gold. However you soften the metal, buy definition, heating material and rapid cooling can not be called annealing.

 

I realize that, in this day and age, asking for info on coin making, more specific thermal treatment in the process, may raise the ire of certain government agencies. It is a shame that one can not have a curious interest to further one's knowledge on subject matter without having to defend one's movitves legally - but that's a rant for another subject and location.

[AlixTCat]

Silver is silver is silver.

While I respect your years in the metals business, we ain't about to let our annealled silver slow cool for jewelry making. Hahaha!

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

Jonathan

[RWB]

There are a lot of web resources on metals, metal working and various heat treatments. The jewelry web sites cover a lot about handling gold and silver. In common usage "annealing" refers to making the metal softer and easier to work; "hardening" refers to making the metal harder and resistant to wear or damage. The metallurgical folks have specific meanings for these terms and any who are reading this are probably having convulsions....

[John Martinez]

In the intrest of good will, and the fact that I am new to this hobby and the manufacturing processes, I'll accept - quote - "annealing" refers to making the metal softer and easier to work; "hardening" refers to making the metal harder and resistant to wear or damage - unquote. Besides, I'll bet your jewelry guys make more money than us metals guys.

[ldhair]

Thanks RWB. Cool stuff.

I learn something everyday here.

 

Sorry Hayden if we jacked your thread.

[AlixTCat]

In the intrest of good will, and the fact that I am new to this hobby and the manufacturing processes, I'll accept - quote - "annealing" refers to making the metal softer and easier to work; "hardening" refers to making the metal harder and resistant to wear or damage - unquote. Besides, I'll bet your jewelry guys make more money than us metals guys.

 

I think there just may be different processes for different purposes. It may be called "annealing" for both separate processes. The end result is a metal that is "softer" and more maleable. You can do it the way that works for you. I'll do it the way I was taught by a silversmith. The end result is what we want, softer metal.

 

I'd venture a guess that "most" jewelry guys are making LESS than you metals guys. Your work is more steady and probably does not involve traveling 50K miles a year to shows just to sell enough to pay for your flight ticket and hotel room. !

 

Jonathan

[AlixTCat]

BTW, just so you don't think I am making it up how one anneals in jewelrymaking, you can google it, or just have a look-see at this site. I learned metalsmithing from The Complete Metalsmith.

 

http://jewelrymaking.about.com/od/aboutmetalandstones/a/062405.htm

 

Jonathan

[John Martinez]

Again, my inexperience in jewlerymaking - silver and gold - means I have some additional learning to do, and intend to do to add to my knowledge. Hey I'll admit when I'm wroo..... that's, wrooon.... er..... wrooooo.....