Fundamental Ethical Problem Of Lying

[supertooth]

Why do we lie? Webster says lying is the "intent to deceive" or "to convey a false impression". But there is more to it than that. Lying is a "failure to tell the truth". From childhood on we have a "fear of failure"----so we lie to avoid it. Most of us have excused our way at some time or another through life because we cannot stand to "look bad". We refuse to admit mistakes [it is always another"s fault] and therefore we wish not to accept responsibility for our actions.

Since coming back into the serious collecting of coins some 6+ years ago, I see the intent to deceive and the ability to convey a false impression as almost being a "prerequisite" to being in the coin business. I add quickly that it is not everybody! But a percentage that I find totally unacceptable. Knowledge---I refer you to a previous thread of mine from July22----seems to be the only defense against "being taken". My question to all of you is this: "Is making money or the art of being #1 and coming out on top" sufficient reason to forget your inner morality or business ethics?? And, if NO, why do so very many risk friendships being lost---or worse yet their jobs---or risk their family or business reputations going down the tubes by doing it?? My one answer is that they think that they are too smart to get caught. What say all of you?? Bob [supertooth]

[truthteller]

This is a great topic for Coin Psycology 101. In my experience, some of the greatest liars are in the coin business. What is exciting, is being able to disntinguish the lie from the truth. In many, many instances, dealers have lied to my face about deals, coins, history, provenance, only for me to actually know the true story. US coin dealers are very good at lying. Most foreign dealers are honest and tell most of the truth. Most of my coin friends are foreign dealers.

 

One story relates to provenance. I bought a very rare commem, found the history and provenance to the coin. I was sitting at a dealers table one day. The dealer was talking to another collector. This dealer claimed to be the owner of "my" rare commem, and was relaying all this "information" to the client. I did not speak up, but was quite amused at the "made up" provenance this respectable dealer was telling the collector. It was purely showmanship.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

I would not say, by any stretch of the imagination, that liars are limited to the coin business (and I know that's not what you said, Bob). It's important to point out that lying is ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, from sales, to mate selection, to common, every-day experiences. Elaborate stroy telling, as Truth mentioned, is practically an art - unfortunately, it is very often, probably most often, employed in deceit. Many times, the deceit is also designed to fool even the one being deceptive (Wormwood principal).

 

Interestingly, I just subscribed to Scientific American Mind - the June issue is all about why humans lie. It'll be an interesting read.

 

Hoot

[Techno_mike-migration]

This is really why I enjoy collecting via the internet...I don't have to listen to some dealer babble on about aspects of a coin I don't care about. Most of the talk is designed to distract one from the real job. Does the coin meet grading criteria? Does the coin have eye-appeal? Is the price appropriate? Return policy? These questions can be answered without the help of some former used car salesman yakking away about this being the best deal ever...yada, yada, yada...

 

This also is reinforced by the fact that I collect only certified coins...the last thing I need is to have some dealer talking to me while I am studying a third party cert coin.

 

Mike

[IGWT]

My question to all of you is this: "Is making money or the art of being #1 and coming out on top" sufficient reason to forget your inner morality or business ethics?

 

You give unscruplous people far more credit than due. They cannot forget what they never learned . . .

 

And, if NO, why do so very many risk friendships being lost---or worse yet their jobs---or risk their family or business reputations going down the tubes by doing it?

 

. . . and they cannot lose what they do not truly possess.

 

The good guys are out there, Bob; don't let the bad guys get you down.

[IGWT]

It's important to point out that lying is ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, from sales, to mate selection, to common, every-day experiences.

 

Now I'm really confused, Hoot . . . if I believe your statement, then I can't believe your statement.

[Hoot]

It's important to point out that lying is ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, from sales, to mate selection, to common, every-day experiences.

 

Now I'm really confused, Hoot . . . if I believe your statement, then I can't believe your statement.

 

Ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, not every transaction and interaction.

 

Hoot

 

From The Screwtape Letters, by C.S. Lewis: "Readers are advised to remember that the devil is a liar. Not everything that Screwtape says should be assumed to be true even from his own angle."

[HaydenTubbs]

This is really why I enjoy collecting via the internet...I don't have to listen to some dealer babble on about aspects of a coin I don't care about. Most of the talk is designed to distract one from the real job. Does the coin meet grading criteria? Does the coin have eye-appeal? Is the price appropriate? Return policy? These questions can be answered without the help of some former used car salesman yakking away about this being the best deal ever...yada, yada, yada...

 

This also is reinforced by the fact that I collect only certified coins...the last thing I need is to have some dealer talking to me while I am studying a third party cert coin.

 

Mike

 

 

Come on now Mike I'm sure if you were to just ask, there are plenty of people on these board who could make you feel right at home. What I hate the most about there babble is when they flatter you:"You definately have a great eye for coins""wow! I wish my son was as knowledgeable about coins as you" and on and on.Have you ever felt like giving one of those dealers a piece of your mind and a fist to the nose?

 

 

BTW Great thread Bob,and I'm not lying!!!

[IGWT]

It's important to point out that lying is ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, from sales, to mate selection, to common, every-day experiences.

 

Now I'm really confused, Hoot . . . if I believe your statement, then I can't believe your statement.

 

Ubiquitous in every form of transaction and interaction, not every transaction and interaction."[/i]

 

I see your point, and I was just having fun with the idea that lying is ubiquitous. I also appreciate your quote from C.S. Lewis.

[michael]

My question to all of you is this: "Is making money or the art of being #1 and coming out on top" sufficient reason to forget your inner morality or business ethics??

 

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YESYES YESYES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

[midwest]

Almighty George who supplieth all of my needs . [/color]

 

It is all about the money. Plus after awhile you become desensitized to it and it becomes sort of excepted. Take the scum bags who advertise in NN and CW with full page ads. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise but they do. Just like in a recent article CW contacted 8 DIFFERENT "GRADING SERVICES" ABOUT THE SATIN FINSIH COINS In all actuality they should have called only 4 but the rest they take advertising money from so they gave them a call. The list even included ACG and NTC

 

In the end money drives it all because they do not care about the coins. Just do a AT job on a coin and hype it on EBAY or even better have it slabbed in a 3rd world slab. Even better just make your own grading service. Then watch those who do not know bid like crazy.

 

Certify coins with services who don't grade but encapsulate with only MS70 and PR70 and watch the money pile up.

 

Alter coins so they become rare coins or sell outright fake coins.

 

How about paying the widow a pittance for her late husbands collection.

 

How about wizzing a coin to decieve or AT'ing to hide a problem.

 

How about hawking coins at high prices on TV because the people don't know any better.

 

How about cracking coins untill they are maxed out.

 

One dealer had 13,000 inserts from PCGS alone but I am sure he is about the coins.

 

How about starting your own grading service wityh CW holders.

 

How about dipping coins to get "maximum grade potential".

 

O WHAT THE ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR DOES.

 

You may now que the song what a wonderfull life.

[EZ_E]

I believe that most people lie to either prop up a fragile ego or for personal gain. Both show signs of gross immaturity. One of the keys to maturity is objectivity of one's own actions. Without such, there is no system of checks and balances.

 

And concerning the morality of lying: this all depends upon one's world view. If one morally objects to lying then it is either because of one's religious view point or because of morality instilled in the individual from their parents or from another roll model. Yet, regardless of one's upbringing, the conscience can still be seered from repetative negative behavior. For instance, there once was an old man who could drink scalding, hot coffee in one gulp w/o pain. Why? Because through years and years of doing so, his nerve endings had become seered. This is the same for anything. Eventually, by continuously acting upon a certain behavior, that action becomes the norm with no feelings of remorse.

 

Money is a tool which is a necessity with which one can thrive or become entangled. It too can become an obsession with no rules too sacred in pursuit of the almighty dollar. That is why lying, cheating, stealing and even worse are now so easily justifiable.

 

The coin market is also a very, very tough business. It is often very difficult to make money after travel and other expenses are taken into account. So, often the difference between being in the black or in the red is in fanagling the truth a little. Do you honestly think that John Paul Sarosi, Ken Pines or Jim Halperin would be millionaires today if they were always on the up and up? So, one's morality is often up for sale/trade. The difference is how badly does someone want something and to what extent will that person go in order to achieve those goals.

 

The other angle is ego. I relayed a story about a co-worker I once knew a couple of months ago. He had a cushy job in the Air Force during the Vietnam War era. He was drafted from the USAF into the Army and sent to infantry where he was wounded with scrapnel injuries. Upon recovery, he was made a helo gunner. Kind of sux, eh? Anyway, there is an Extended Care Facility resident here at the hospital that I work who overheard this story. Yesterday, a housekeeper was telling me that this w/c bound resident, who is a habitual liar, was relaying the exact same story but saying that it happened to him. What a bonehead. Geez.

 

A good liar, however, will always remember his lies and will build upon them even after a period of months or even years have passed.

[HaydenTubbs]

Almighty George who supplieth all of my needs . [/color]

 

It is all about the money. Plus after awhile you become desensitized to it and it becomes sort of excepted. Take the scum bags who advertise in NN and CW with full page ads. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise but they do. Just like in a recent article CW contacted 8 DIFFERENT "GRADING SERVICES" ABOUT THE SATIN FINSIH COINS In all actuality they should have called only 4 but the rest they take advertising money from so they gave them a call. The list even included ACG and NTC

 

In the end money drives it all because they do not care about the coins. Just do a AT job on a coin and hype it on EBAY or even better have it slabbed in a 3rd world slab. Even better just make your own grading service. Then watch those who do not know bid like crazy.

 

Certify coins with services who don't grade but encapsulate with only MS70 and PR70 and watch the money pile up.

 

Alter coins so they become rare coins or sell outright fake coins.

 

How about paying the widow a pittance for her late husbands collection.

 

How about wizzing a coin to decieve or AT'ing to hide a problem.

 

How about hawking coins at high prices on TV because the people don't know any better.

 

How about cracking coins untill they are maxed out.

 

One dealer had 13,000 inserts from PCGS alone but I am sure he is about the coins.

 

How about starting your own grading service wityh CW holders.

 

How about dipping coins to get "maximum grade potential".

 

O WHAT THE ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR DOES.

 

You may now que the song what a wonderfull life.

 

 

But Travis isn't the above what you do???

 

 

 

 

 

 

J/K!

[Techno_mike-migration]

Have you ever felt like giving one of those dealers a piece of your mind and a fist to the nose?

Hayden

 

Soooooooo many times!

 

Mike