Classic Head Large Cents from 1808-1814

[Hoot]

In response to Victor's excellent questions, I decided to make another post. Bear in mind that my experience in these matters is growing but limited at this time. Consequently, I hope that anyone else with experience with large cents will chime in.

 

Perhaps you can educate me a bit concerning Classic Head Large Cents from 1808-1814:

 

1) Is there such a thing as a circulated example w/o pitting & porosity?

 

Yes, but for any of the early (1793-1807) and middle date cents (1808-1835), pitting and porosity of one degree or another is fairly normal. This can span a range from not-distracting to distracting for eye appeal. This is probably the key - If eye appeal is intact, then minor pitting/porosity can be a no-nevermind.

 

Circulated examples in the lower grades (particularly below VF) tend to have more of this than higher grades. You will likely find, however, a good share of slabbed pieces that reflect grades of VF25 and better that have minimal (not-distracting) pitting/porosity. Coins that market grade AU and better typically have very minimal amounts.

 

2) Are they always very darkly toned as from recovered buried coins?

 

Not all are darkly toned, and those that have been cared for very tenderly over the years will be chocolate brown. I have seen many darkly toned pieces in early cents, and it just comes with the territory with coins that circulated. Bear in mind that copper is quite reactive and the admixture of metals in the alloys of the times bore a strong influence on the ultimate tone of such pieces.

 

Look for luster in darkly toned (and other) pieces. Luster is key for telling you about wear and surface problems.

 

3) Did you see any decent example at the show with any eye-appeal at all?

 

At the show, I concentrated on cents of 1793-1804. There are so many varieties in those years, it's enough to make your head spin. But I did see a few 1808-14 cents in high grades (EAC 35-55) that were very appealing. Did I pick them up and look closely? No - those are pretty pricey coins, and I'm trying to work on draped bust and earlier pieces before I turn my attention to classic heads.

 

4) Have you ever seen a nice example besides the mint state mega-bucks examples?

 

Yes. There are some nice circulated pieces out there that grade EAC 15-40 that will not kill you on price. If they ar choice or average+, they will garner a premium over an average piece. You will have to plan on forking out 1-2 grand. If that kills you, then you'll have to figure out ways to minimize the damage.

 

5) In order to satisfy my type collection, what is the best that I could hope for for a $2,000 or less purchase?

 

A choice or A+ coin... EAC 15-20 (slabbed = ca. VF35-

AU50).

 

6) What are the odds of getting a nice coin in the VF-AU range?

 

Your odds are not bad, but you'll have to go to a good dealer or luck out in an auction.

 

7) Which dealer/individual would you recommend to me to make the acquisiton?

 

There are several good dealers, but I'm familiar with three that will give you the straight skinny on a coin. That said, I'd caution you about approaching them with the notion of slabbing the coin, as they may not serve you well. Nearly all of their coins are raw and EAC graded. You need to ask for an average+ or choice coin in a particular price range that has no net grade. (A choice coin, by definition, is this way, but an average+ coin may be net downgraded by one grade level.)

 

I've done business with Doug Bird, and he's a great person, very knowledgeable and will go a long way to help. I've spoken at length with Tom Reynolds who is also a very easy person to get along with, very knowledgeable and helpful. I've also spoken only briefly with Chris Victor-McCawly and Bob Grellman, but they are both upstanding dealers in the copper community. This is by no means a comprehensive list, as I'm quite sure there are others to be endorsed and I hope that other folks will chime in on this one.

 

8) And, I assume that these are all overgraded, too, as mentioned in your post?

 

The people I just mentioned grade strictly by EAC standards. They will not overgrade their coins.

 

What you find is that dealers that are not specialized with copper, and have it as part of a general inventory, are likely to market grade the coins, ignoring problems and, to some extent, eye appeal. Their grades do not account for problems the same way that a strict EAC grader will account for them, and they will not judge eye appeal the same way. A market grade on a raw copper tells you nothing of potential pitfalls of the coin, whereas an EAC grade should reflect this.

 

If you are after only a single coin for type, then buy "choice" and graded EAC. If, however, you are satisfied with a coin you find that's already slabbed, then it may be a safe bet also.

 

Hope this helps, Victor, and thanks for the questions.

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

BTW, one of the factors that played a role in the quality of copper planchets in the time of 1808-14 was the War of 1812. At that time, the U.S. was getting its copper cent and half cent blanks from England, and as the war was brewing, then happening, obtaining quality copper from England was quite tough.

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

Here's a link I found for Early American Copper dealers on the web.

 

Hoot

[HaydenTubbs]

From personal experince I would highly recomend Chris Victor-McCawly. His website is: www.earlycents.com and he has a ton of sweet copper on there.Enjoy!

[EZ_E]

Hoot, thank you so very, very much for your reply!!! I really mean it and I appreciate it big-time! I have been looking for a nice coin for over a year now and have never seen one that I would like. I certainly do not want to settle by any means. I am much more optomistic now after your post. It is a little disappointing that others haven't added their knowledge, yet but I am still hopeful that others will add their input.

 

The 1812 and 1814 are the generic dates. If I remember right, the 1812 is usually the better of the two in the eye-appeal category. I usually seek the highest grade that I can afford at the time and think that I will go up to $2K on this one but I am more concerned with planchet quality overy grade/wear. I would actually be happy with an XF-40 with an appealing planchet. I will follow your advice and go with the EAC grades/dealers. I have too little confidence in ANY TPGS's holder when it comes to earlier copper. Just too much wiggle room for my likes.

 

Lucky for type collectors that the Randall Hoard was discovered! This means that I have a nice ms 63, above average 1820 Large Cent for my collection. If not for this hoard then that would have been equivalent in price with the Classic Heads in matching grades/quality.

 

Your advice certainly will be printed and kept for future references. Thanks again, Mark, for your excellent advice and thanks, Hayden, for your input. I will take all into careful consideration when I make the purchase.

 

[EZ_E]

To The Top soliciting comments.........

 

 

 

 

 

Bummer, Arch, what ever happened to the popcorn eating/waiting icon???

[midwest]

To The Top soliciting comments.........

 

 

 

 

 

Bummer, Arch, what ever happened to the popcorn eating/waiting icon???

 

You just have to look.

[Oldtrader3]

A great amount of information, Hoot. I think that many of us appreciated this article. Thanks.