Beware!!!

[EZ_E]

...of John Paul Sarosi! I placed an order awhile ago and got very poor quality coins which I sent back. I paid $225 for a mint state SLQ and $110 for a "MS 66" 1909 VDB. The quarter was dipped in a solution filled with silver ions which caused a slick, un-natural appearance. The cent was not original and had a huge ring ding below the date. It took them 3 weeks to refund my credit card but for an amount of only $266. I called them up just now to ask why the discrepancy. I spoke with John himself and told him why I returned the two coins. He then started to literally cuss me with very extreme vulgarity! I never even got an answer to my question. He said that he doesn't refund postage. So, how does that apply? I have never encountered such disrespect! They are shysters and should be avoided at all costs! They tried to rip me off with inferior coins and they would not even answer me questions as to why the discrepancy for the refund.

 

What recourse do I have? Please, any and all input is welcome.

[K6AZ]

I've heard of similar encounters with them.

 

Your recourse will be with your credit card company. You can dispute the difference. Depending on who you use, this can be done online, on the phone, or via mail. Take a look at your last credit card statement, on the back most of them have a dispute form.

[EZ_E]

Thanks for the feedback. I just called the ANA to discover my actions for recourse. I will also file a BBB complaint. I do not know the total discrepancy amount since I had used a coupon for $50 off my total order. I kept three modern silver dollar commems and a proof cameo '64 Kennedy. So the disputed amount is between $20 and $50. The money is not the issue. The extremely rude behavior and problems coins are, however.

[goose3]

EZE

 

Eric is correct.

 

If you don't mind....list the total amount of your order before the 50.00 coupon and what were original shipping charges?

[K6AZ]

I see. In that case you can lodge a complaint with the ANA, as it sounds you've already looked into.

[goose3]

I believe you may also be able to file a complaint with Coinworld.

 

I don't get that rag anymore but do recall seeing a set of rules for advertisers.

[EZ_E]

I believe you may also be able to file a complaint with Coinworld.

 

I don't get that rag anymore but do recall seeing a set of rules for advertisers.

 

I have the original receipt at home and will list the charges later but I summed them up pretty good already. Good idea about Coin World, too. I certainly don't believe in condoning negative behavior. And, I was patient and never once called them asking about the delay in the refund since, by law, they have 30 days to make good.

 

So, out of a possible $335 refund or $285 minus the $50 then there is still a discrepancy. Shipping has no bearing whatsoever on this matter since I never calculated it in the refund. So, even considering the most limiting parameters, there is still a $19 discrepancy.

 

When I asked for a more detailed accounting he said to me, "What? Are you studid? I just told you we don't refund postage." What a bonehead! Even if I was in the wrong, which I wasn't, that is no way to run a business. They are such a contradiction in business management. Their marketing is right on, I have received decent coins from them in the past but both of their attitudes is downright rude and hostile. Accountability is demanded of their actions by me!

[mrearlygold]

Whew!

 

Sounds like maybe that guy needs to be taught a lesson.

 

 

Tom

[EZ_E]

My understanding is that he had heart surgery a month ago. The guy will be dead in 2 years if he doesn't learn to control his anxiety level.

[TomB]

That's some poor customer service. If you paid by credit card, and I forgot already if you said how you paid, you should definitely dispute the charge.

[michael]

what tomb and kaz said

 

 

i have had the same experience with this company and the nastyness of this specific man

 

but i just hung up the phone and never ordered or read their ads again

 

mean rude and sleazy

[jom]

I bought an Indian Eagle from them about 12 years ago and got garbage. I did get my money back however sans postage. It is surprising they are still in business. Business from their ads in CW....surprising indeed...you'd think people who read CW would know better.

 

jom

[melmcbee]

That is awful. Thanks for alerting us. I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction. You don't deserve that kind of treatment and he lost a good customer.

[EZ_E]

Boardsters, this guy is even a bigger shiester than I mentioned. I forgot about another item that I returned and was not given credit for. Here are the details from the original receipt:

 

Invoice date 5-30-05 (even though I placed the order three weeks before this date)

 

1 1965 SMS w/ cameo 50C $35.00 (I returned this,too, but was not credited for it)

 

 

1 1964 1964 Cameo proof Kennedy $79.00 (a decent coin that I kept)

 

1 1930 P 25 C SL ms-64 $220.00 (a dog of a coin I returned with the glossy, oil-like, un-natural surface caused by dipping a coin in an overused solution filled with Ag ions.)

 

1 1909 VDB 1C LH MS-66 fiery mint red $110.00 (an ugly dog of a coin. Unoriginal with a large rim ding below the date. Returned)

 

1 1999 Dolly Madison $ BU $55.00 (good coin)

 

1 1997 Jackie Robinson $ PR $83.00 (good coin)

 

1 1992 Smithsonian $ PR $68.00 (good coin)

 

 

So the total order was $650 minus a coupon for $50. So my CC was charged for $600 total. Apparently, they did not charge postage.

 

So, I returned the following:

 

1) $35

 

2) $220

 

3) $110

 

for a total of $365-50=$315 at the minimum although their coupon still applied for the $285 worth of items I kept but would have been prorated.

 

This was my refund: 06/18/2005 MC JOHN PAUL SAROSI INC - JOHNSTOWN PA $266.05 CR

 

So, the ANA, BBB and Coin World will all get a complaint form from me. Please, spread the word. How dare the little &*())*^& to curse me like that. He is so lucky that he wasn't face to face with me because I never have tolerated such disrespect and I would have treated him like the wimp that he is. Then again, such wusses as he would have probably called the cops if I man-handled him like he deserved.

[Morgannut]

I doubt ANA or CoinWorld will do much. I got a raw "AU-58" 1892CC Morgan from these guys and it came back from the Grading Service "whizzed". I called them for credit or trade and the guy was very rude and said that he" told me the coin was circulated!" I didn't know Morgan Dollars were whizzed during commerce. What a joke of a coin dealer in my opinion!!!

[EZ_E]

If the matter just concerned his rude and obnoxious behavior, then you're right. However, they literally cheated me out of $50 plus dollars for no reason whatsoever except that they are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons and usually get away with it. Once the man started cussing me I called him the "C" word that would offend all ladies. It shut him right up. That shows you the level of respect that I had for this she-man. And I'm off of that prednisone garbage now so it was my true, irked emotions.

[reid1836]

Hey ! Ez,

I`d say that posting your unpleasant experience on this forum is a great recourse. I had a similiar experience with them. Rude and obnoxious would be a fitting description, all for asking for one of their advertised price list catalogues. I scraped that particular dealer off my boot a long time ago. Thank goodness their are still plenty of kind, well mannered,customer service oriented dealers out there ! What a shame that some financial success can have such an effect. Certainly business will continue. But I suspect a shrinking customer base will eventually lead to ruin. It`s very hard to pay for over-leveraged assets when many of your potential sales are going to the competition !

[EZ_E]

Hey, Reid! Haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope all is well.

 

"Out of the abundance of one's heart one speaks"

 

So, I will relay the good with the bad. I've mentioned a few dealers before who are men of incredibly high integrity and honesty but, of course, there are always those on the other end of the spectrum. I am amazed at how many individuals on these boards are among those with such a high level of integrity and are just down right good people. The generosity of many on these boards have overwhelmed me and have influenced me for the better. I'm going to copy and paste a comment I made earlier today to Chris Machuga. It is sincere and from the heart. Just read some of my comments above if may think that mince words.

 

OK, here it is and thanks to all of ya for such a positive influence!

 

Chris, there you are you ole dawg! Been hybernatin' have ya?

 

I see that you finally got the vintage train photo in you sig line. Another boardster to the rescue! I tell you, most of the NGC forum participants are top of the notch, stand-up guys. I have been a very, very cynical person for most of my life due to just living life. I really have gotten just a tad bit better outlook towards people because of my personal experiences with many of the posters on this forum. Excluding that Machuga-Dude, of course. Your mom, on the other hand, is such a beautiful and talented person. Why can't you be more like your mama, Chris?!

 

I'm surprised that the '69 ANA medal is so cheap. You too, bud-dy. What's up with the one dollar bump in bid? J/K, it's yours. I bid one cent over the minimum. The guy who posted the link sure is a cool fella to do so, don't you think. Kind of goes with my point above.

 

So, I can't wait until I get my 2005 SF ANA medals. I got the very last one of the 2.5" bimetallic gold/silver one based upon the Numismatic News article. All other numismatic publications lagged behind at least a week or two with their articles which made me the fortunate one. And not just because I am so damn happy and handsome, either.

 

Anyway, Brother-Chu, I hope that you get yours, too.

 

[cpm9ball]

I see that you finally got the vintage train photo in you sig line. Another boardster to the rescue!

 

Yes! Thank you, Hayden! Still can't get the Kennedy posted, though. I guess I'm just an insufficiently_thoughtful_person!

 

I tell you, most of the NGC forum participants are top of the notch, stand-up guys.

 

AMEN!

 

I have been a very, very cynical person for most of my life due to just living life.

 

What do you expect, Victor? Anyone who goes by the moniker "EZ" is asking for trouble! If you'd just remove that tattoo from your forehead and the embroidery from the back of all your shirts (including scrubs) maybe people wouldn't try to take advantage of you.

 

Your mom, on the other hand, is such a beautiful and talented person.

 

Uh-oh! Here we go! He's sucking-up for a Christmas present. Bite him, Caleb!

 

Why can't you be more like your mama, Chris?!

 

If I were like my mother, I probably would have become interested in art and not drafting. Therefore, I most likely would not have designed our current home (9,000 sq. ft. on one floor).

 

If I were like my mother, I probably would not have become such a good pool-player and, therefore, would not have developed an interest in coin-collecting.

 

If I hadn't become interested in coin-collecting, I wouldn't be on these boards responding to your ridiculous comments.

 

I'm surprised that the '69 ANA medal is so cheap.

 

I hope it does go that cheap and it doesn't go anywhere near my "Max Bid".

 

What's up with the one dollar bump in bid?

 

"Auto Bid", dufus!

 

The guy who posted the link sure is a cool fella to do so, don't you think.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I have spent the good part of my time searching for them. Once again, my sincere thanks to KingAlanI .

 

I got the very last one..........which made me the fortunate one. And not just because I am so damn.........handsome, either.

 

Telegram from the ANA: "That's it! Send it back!"

 

Anyway, Brother-Chu, I hope that you get yours, too.

 

Thanks, Victor, for the heads-up on the KingAlanI post.

 

C H R I S

[reid1836]

Hi Ez !

All is very well in fact. I`ve just been working extremely long hours. Which is normal for this time of year and lasts until fall. When things start to slow down. But, I still manage to check the forum once in a while and try to keep track of some interesting pieces on eBay. By the way Greg has an exceptional 1942/1 Mercury, NGC VF-35 for sale which ends tonight. I placed a bid on it and was out bid. But, I still think it is a good deal. I may yet place another bid. Only thing, is that I have purchased two others in the past week or so. One, a nice ANACS VF-20 and the other a PCGS EF-40. Oh well ! You can never have too many 42/1`s.

Sorry about the plug ! I just thought it fell right in line with your statement about forum members and sellers that have a high degree of integrity.

[EZ_E]

A little follow-up info of my complaint sent to the ANA and the BBB:

 

Complaint against John Paul Sarosi, Inc.

 

 

I, Victor D. Easley, am lodging a three-fold complaint against John Paul Sarosi specifically and John Paul Sarosi, Inc. in general.

 

1)For advertising blatantly overgraded and misrepresented items.

 

2)For not making full refunds on returned items.

 

3)For extremely rude and obnoxious behavior peppered with extreme vulgarity.

 

I placed an order the first week of May for $650 with John Paul Sarosi, Inc. I was told that it would take three weeks to fulfill the order. That was fine. When I did receive the order on June 2nd, three of the seven items ordered were completely unacceptable. I returned the three items via registered mail (#RR290880266US) on June 2, 2005. I then received a partial refund on June 18, 2005. Details to follow.

 

This was my order:

 

1 1965 SMS set w/ cameo 50C $35.00

 

1 1030 P 25C SLQ MS-64 $220.00

 

1 1909 VDB 1C MS 66 RED $110.00

 

1 1964 50C Kennedy PR 67 Cameo $79.00

 

1 1999 Dolly Madison $ BU $55.00

 

1 1997 Jackie Robinson $ PR $83.00

 

1 1996 Smithsonian $ PR $68.00

_________

$650.00

 

Minus a coupon for $50 off orders over $500 = $600.00

 

 

Now each of the three complaints shall be addressed in more detail:

 

1)For advertising blatantly overgraded and misrepresented items.

 

I am a senior numismatist who has invested hundreds of hours in the study, reading and discussion of coins. In addition, I have attended the ANA Official Coin Grading Seminar. So, the following opinions are tempered with knowledge.

 

a)The 1909 VDB cent was advertised as “MS-66 Fiery Mint State Red”.

 

The pricing structure will often give hints of the true nature of a coin. A true MS 66 RED coin brings from $250-$300 in today’s market. So, I knew that with a price tag of $110 that this advertised coin was not truly a 66 but, I had hoped, would be a very nice, original MS 65 RED example. When received, I was sorely disappointed. It not only was an ugly, unoriginal coin but there was a huge rim disturbance immediately below the date. The fact that is was a damaged and unoriginal example of this coinage type would result in this coin being rejected for certification by the leading Third Party Grading Services. In reality, this was a $25 coin.

 

b)The 1930 Standing Liberty Quarter would also have been rejected to be graded by the leading Third Party Grading Services.

 

Upon placement of my order, I requested from Mary Sarosi to have a sharply struck mint state example for my type collection. I additionally stated that I would pay a premium for a top example. She and John Paul Sarosi, Inc. took a full three weeks to fulfill this order which should have provided sufficient time to obtain the request example. Yet, when I received my example in the mail, it was also a problem coin which would have been rejected by any numismatist with the least bit of knowledge. It was a 1930 dated example which statistically is the sharpest struck date of the series with approximately 45% of the coins struck being graded as a Full Head specimen due to the sharp strikes. This coin had been dipped in an acidic solution that had been overused. I could tell this because of all of the excess silver ions contained within the overused dipping solution coated this quarter with a silver plating. This results in a glossy, oily, un-natural surface on the coin. Any numismatist worth his salt would reject this example in a heart beat. It was realistically a $75-$100 coin.

 

c)The 1965 Special Mint Set was acceptable by most people’s standards but it did not meet my approval for esthetic reasons. Not John Paul Sarosi, Inc.’s fault.

 

d)The other coins ordered were perfectly acceptable which is evidenced by the fact that I kept them.

 

 

2)For not making full refunds on returned items.

 

As mentioned, I returned three items on June 2nd via USPS Registered Mail. These three items were: 1) 1965 SMS for $35 2)1930 quarter for $220 and 3)1909 VDB cent for $110.

 

This means that I was due a refund of a maximum of $365 and a minimum refund of $315 if one subtracts the $50 coupon, which should have been prorated for my kept order of $285 which I requested. Yet, on June 18th of 2005 I only received a refund for $266.05. This is a very large discrepancy that John Paul Sarosi refused to address. Instead he cursed me and hung up the phone, twice. I shall go into detail concerning this now.

 

 

3)For extremely rude and obnoxious behavior peppered with extreme vulgarity.

 

Finally, after frequent checking of my online account for my credit card, I noticed the partial refund on June 24 at approximately 11:00 Pacific Standard Time. I immediately called John Paul Sarosi, Inc.’s toll free number. I was civil and I merely asked for details about why there was a discrepancy. I stated the reason why I returned the coins without malice or vulgarity. John Paul Sarosi then commenced a barrage of vulgarities that even offended me, an ex-sailor. I told him that I had not called to argue but to obtain an answer about the disputed refund. He stated that they do not refund postage. Fine, but this had nothing whatsoever to do with the discrepancy of the refunded amount. This guy continued his cursing and severe disrespect and said, upon my request for further clarification, “What!? Are you stupid or what? I told you that we do not refund postage.” He continued his swearing and then hung up on me. I called him back and was hung up on again.

 

I have included a copy of a thread that I started on the NGC coin forums. It gives some additional details and verifies that many other individuals have had similar experiences with this guy. Please, take action on this matter. Do not overlook it or downplay the incident. I request that severe sanctions or even expulsion from the ANA be implemented. I am also filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and with Coin World. Please keep me informed.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Victor D. Easley

ANA # 1205126

 

P.S. Copies of Original receipt and USPS Registed Mail receipt included

[Leothelion]

Assuming you paid $600 plus postage and insurance to have the coins mailed to you. You should have received a refund of $336.92, not $266.05! John Paul Sarosi owes you an apology in a way of a major discount on your next order (if there is ever going to be another, ) and $70.87.

 

If $50 was subtracted from your refund of $365, you still should have received a $315 refund. But this is unethical because your order was over $500. Did the ad say you had to buy $500+ in coins or just place a $500+ order?

 

Each coin should have been reduced by the percentage of the total minus the deduction over the total value of the coins. ie; $600 / $650 gives you a discount of .0769% on each coin. A return of $365 in coins X .0769% gives you a refund of $336.92.

 

Since the two coins were grossly overgraded you should have been entitled to a partial refund of your postage for those two coins and a refund for the postage you had to pay to send them back. If you can get this guy to understand this, you should have an refund greater then the initial $336.92.

 

I had a seller grossly misrepresent a coin with his description and I basically sent him through the cleaners for my refund which he paid. After I received my refund, I then told him that if he wanted his coin back that he would need to send another $6 bucks to have the coin mailed back which he never did. And I still have this crummy coin.

 

Perhaps I should have it in my next coin giveaway contest!

 

Leo

[HaydenTubbs]

My understanding is that he had heart surgery a month ago. The guy will be dead in 2 years if he doesn't learn to control his anxiety level.

 

I bet that there will be very few who go to his funeral.

[wayneherndon]

In my opinion you would be entitled to a maximum refund of $315. Retailers (in many industries) frequently use coupons like this to induce larger sales. Meeting the minimum and then returning a portion violates that intent. If they had intended the coupon to prorate, it would have been a "10% off" coupon or similar.

 

Also, you don't mention what happened with postage. If the postage on the coins was charged in addition to the $600 price, then you would be entitled to $315. If no postage was charged, it would depend on the reason why. For example, if the merchant does not charge postage on sales over $500, then I think it would be appropriate to deduct outbound shipping from your refund, making it somewhat less than $315. On the other hand, if it was free shipping over $100 then there should be no deduction (since you kept over $100). These are only a few possibilities, we'd need to understand exactly what happened with the shipping to come up with an appropriate answer.

 

I did check one of JPS's ads and see that his postage charge is $4 for orders under $500 and $0 for orders over $500. The ad further states that actual postage charges are non-refundable. I take this to mean if you buy a $100 coin you will pay $104 with shipping. If it costs $7 to ship it to you, you will get a refund of $97.

 

If these were my terms (and they're not), I probably would have deducted an additional $4 from your refund so that essentially you paid $4 shipping on your (after returns) less than $500 order. Thus, you would have gotten a refund of $311.

 

I could also see some reading this as the entire outbound shipping charge being deducted from the refund. Given that list of coins, it is hard to image shipping (unless overnight) that exceeded $10 to $15 max (net $300 to $305 refund). So, I don't see how it could have gotten as low as $266.05.

 

These terms were read from one of his recent ads. It is not clear from your write up what terms applied to your particular transaction.

 

In any event, there is no excuse for rude behavior if that is what you experienced (but, it is not something the ANA can/will control). You are entitled to an explanation for how they got to the $266.05 number. Absent some other information we don't know, it allows appears you're entitled to $35-$40 more in refund as well.

 

I hope you are able to ultimately get a satisfactory resolution to this issue and please update the boards with any progress.

 

WH

[EZ_E]

Wayne, so cool to see you post over here. My instincts and knowledge of you says that you are a stand-up guy. See what happens when one tries to take shortcuts? Oh well, the guy needed a spanking anyway.

 

Leo,

 

According to my invoice, they charged no S&H charges. I had a number of coupons from their barrage of solicitations which would have been applicable to the $285 order which I kept. I did not go into the transaction with closed eyes. I was skeptical of them concerning classic coins but had ordered a complete set of mintstate Franklins a couple of years ago at MS63 or better and they did grade. I scutinized them pretty close but they panned out. I was still leary of JPS but decided to give them a chance since I have no qualms about returning a coin. Stupid me. Now I definitely know better.

 

This guy was not just rude but he was down-right obnoxious. If we were face to face then he would definitely have been humbled with a B-slap upside his big ole mellon head.

 

I could get no explanation whatsoever from this guy. He just kept reciting his S&H policy. As you can see, this does nothing to explain the situation. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he practices this criminal behaviour on an on-going basis and feels that it is his right and due to get a little extra from customers. Afterall, how dare me to return his coins. Hardly anyone else at all does so why should he reward negative behavior. What else makes sense?

 

Since this was a criminal act, if the ANA doesn't take corrective measures then I will resign my membership. And all of my experiences with the ANA have been very positive up until the present.

 

Well, I could ramble on indefinitely but I won't. Remember, don't take shortcuts in your collection because you will pay for it in the long run. Stay with reputable dealers who have proven themselves with a track record.

[michael]

what wayne and leo said

[EZ_E]

Well, I finally got my $50 reimbursement that they arbitrarily kept. I received an e-mail from the BBB with a PDF attachment but hotmail would not open it and it became corrupted if forwarded to someone who could. So, I called the BBB in Pittsburg and left a message asking for them to fax me John Paul Butthead's rebuttal but I never received a reply.

 

I still have not heard any f/u whatsoever from the ANA or from "Coin World".

 

I find it amazing that a man could grossly misrepresent his product, cheat you out of fifty bucks and curse you like a drunken sailor w/o consequences. Well, as always, money talks in this world louder than any wrong actions!

[IGWT]

The wheels of justice grind slowly

[midwest]

They have many happy coustomers link

 

Also I agree with the above post by IGWT

[EZ_E]

They have many happy coustomers link

 

Also I agree with the above post by IGWT

 

 

 

 

 

Travis, thank you very much for providing the PCGS link. Just don't tell Greg M. that I said so.