USA Collectors, A British Perspective. 1 1

[Fenntucky Mike]

I was reading through a reference I recently purchased, The Token Book: 17th 18th & 19th Century Tokens And Their Values, by Paul and Bente R Withers. In it there were several mentions describing the American way of collecting and, well, lets just say they didn't seem to fully agree with how Americans collect. Below are a few quotes from the book that are a good representation of the general tone when mentioning collectors in the USA.

Under the heading "19th Century Copper".

"Collectors in the USA should note that whilst many of what they call 'Conders' are relatively easily found in EF condition, tokens from the 19th century were not made for collectors and underwent considerable circulation. Consequently, they rarely turn up in an unworn state, and that tokens with lustre, what you call 'original red colour' are exceptionally difficult to find. Most pieces have scratches and contact marks due to copper being a soft metal. American collectors should also note that many British collectors and dealers have different, and higher standards of grading than those in use in the USA."

Under the heading "GRADING".
"However, the beauty and value of a piece is often in the eye of the beholder, particularly in the USA, where there is an obsession with owning of the very best possible example of a coin that is available."

The authors also give brief descriptions of their grades and how they should be compared to USA grading standards. The examples being Extremely Fine (EF) - equivalent to AU55, Very Fine (VF) - equivalent to EF40, Fine (F) - equivalent to VF20, fair (fr) - equivalent to VG8, mediocre (med) - equivalent to G4, and poor - equivalent to AG3. 

I bring this up as I recently read two short press releases from NGC/PMG noting that they will be onsite at two different coin fairs in the UK, which, after reading the above mentioned book, has me wondering how much resentment or push back there is in the UK, and Europe in general, towards TPG's and how Americans tend to collect. I know that Kurt has mentioned this several times but I'm starting to notice it more and more, and regardless of push back it seems that I'm seeing greater amounts of foreign coins in TPG holders, and more collections overseas, the L.E. Bruun collection for example, being encapsulated when auctioned. 

BTW: The first lots from the Bruun collection close a week from today, they are being offered by Stack's Bowers. 

[Zebo]

I tend to grade conservatively and follow the British grading standard for my core collection. I always heard them complaining about entombing coins in slabs and their dislike for it. Over the years I seen that view changing some. It may be because of the higher results at auctions that the slabbed coins bring or could be just the gradual change in the hobby catching up to them.

One of the auction houses that I deal with quite a bit has the vast majority of their offerings are slabbed by NGC and I have seen other houses loosen their grading to be more in line with the American grading. It is not consistent, however. Not yet - anyway. 

The book that you mention looks interesting. Hope you found it for a reasonable price.

[Moxie15]

As a collector of British coins I have learned the difference in grading, another aspect is they consider strike as part of the grade. For instance a William IIII shilling needs well struck hair to be considered EF or above.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/8/2024 at 7:47 AM, Zebo said:

The book that you mention looks interesting. Hope you found it for a reasonable price.

Wizard Coin Supply has it in stock for under $100, very similar layout to most Spink catalogs. 

https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/the-token-book-17th-18th-and-19th-century-tokens-and-their-values

On 9/8/2024 at 7:47 AM, Zebo said:

I always heard them complaining about entombing coins in slabs and their dislike for it. Over the years I seen that view changing some. It may be because of the higher results at auctions that the slabbed coins bring or could be just the gradual change in the hobby catching up to them.

One of the auction houses that I deal with quite a bit has the vast majority of their offerings are slabbed by NGC and I have seen other houses loosen their grading to be more in line with the American grading. It is not consistent, however. Not yet - anyway. 

I'm seeing similar trends in the market. I also think there is resentment towards American collectors "hoarding" the best and/or rarest examples of British coins. Maybe? I have been refused sale more than once as the owners did not want to sell to an individual outside of the UK or IoM, etc., and it was not due to the difficulties or cost of shipping. They did not want to see the piece leave the country.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:47 AM, Moxie15 said:

As a collector of British coins I have learned the difference in grading, another aspect is they consider strike as part of the grade. For instance a William IIII shilling needs well struck hair to be considered EF or above.

Good to know, thanks. 

I was generally aware of the difference in grading and terminology between the U.S. and most other countries but being a collector of primarily modern coins I hadn't studied the subtleties in depth as it didn't really affect me. As I start collecting some pieces from the 18th & 19th centuries the differences in become more evident. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:38 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Wizard Coin Supply has it in stock for under $100, very similar layout to most Spink catalogs. 

https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/the-token-book-17th-18th-and-19th-century-tokens-and-their-values

I'm seeing similar trends in the market. I also think there is resentment towards American collectors "hoarding" the best and/or rarest examples of British coins. Maybe? I have been refused sale more than once as the owners did not want to sell to an individual outside of the UK or IoM, etc., and it was not due to the difficulties or cost of shipping. They did not want to see the piece leave the country.

If you think that anti-American bias is large in the U.K., it is. But it’s even worse in the more “exotic” countries, particularly the Middle East. The best way to get a reasonable price is to hide the fact that you are American.

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:17 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

the beauty and value of a piece is often in the eye of the beholder, particularly in the USA, where there is an obsession with owning of the very best possible example of a coin that is available.

Yes, this. I believe this is due to registry collections, a thing that drives most non-Americans to drink heavily.

[coinsandmedals]

I think TPG (third-party grading) is becoming more generally accepted by UK auction firms. This makes sense as it allows them to attract more of the US collector base. I’m not sure the same can be said about UK collectors. I know many who waste no time cracking encapsulated coins to add to their cabinets.

It is worth noting that The Token Book is written by and for collectors of British provincial tokens. Collectively, this group is (rightfully) very skeptical of TPG. Most serious American and UK collectors keep the bulk of their tokens raw. Don’t believe me? Come join us at the Token Congress in Northampton next month. I’m sure any of the attendees would be happy to express their disgust over a pint of true English ale. 

Brain Herriott (Druids’ Cache) sells The Token Book for $90 and offers the other two books in the series. Token Book 3 is an excellent resource for more esoteric pieces. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/9/2024 at 10:09 AM, coinsandmedals said:

Most serious American and UK collectors keep the bulk of their tokens raw.

I don't know or know of any token collectors who have more than a very small portion of their collection in TPG holders, many have zero graded tokens. While there may be certain types or areas of token collecting where TPG might make sense either for authentication or monetary reasons for the vast majority of tokens it doesn't. Although, I have noticed a slight increase of pieces in TPG holders in my areas of interest, I guess we'll see if TPG's and sellers view tokens as a potential area of growth.

I'll more than likely get TB2 soon, TB3, TBD.