Change in Grading Nomenclature needed? 1 1

[Carterofmars]

It seems that luster is the absolute most important aspect when determining MS from about UNC.  If there's any disturbance to the luster of a minted coin, then it's not mint state, no matter how that disturbance occurred- rub, friction, wear.   

It seems to me that it's more important to not think in terms of circulated/uncirculated,  as having been or not having been used in commerce, but rather to think in terms of that mint state- is that luster in tact, absolutely and undisturbed at all, on obverse and and reverse.

Might it be better to do away with the term about uncirculated and replace it with about mint state instead?  Get the words uncirculated and circulated out of the nomenclature entirely? 

Is this reasonable?

Edited Wednesday at 01:35 PM by Carterofmars
Syntax correction.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

determining MS from UNC.

Same thing essentially.

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

If there's any disturbance to the luster of a minted coin, then it's not mint state, no matter how that disturbance occurred- rub, friction, wear.   

Not accurate but disturbance or lack of luster will downgrade the coin, doesn't mean it doesn't grade MS/UNC. Have you checked out the ANA's grading standards? https://www.money.org/official-grading-standards/

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

It seems to me that it's more important to not think in terms of circulation/uncirculated as having been or not having been used in commerce, but think in terms of that mint state- is that luster in tact, absolutely.

Luster matters but what will really blow your mind is that the first coins produced from new dies will have diminished or no luster, or that a coin with eyepopping luster is in fact a real dog due to die wear, or not being fully struck up, etc..  

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

Might it be better to do away with the term about uncirculated and replace it with about mint state instead?  Get the words uncirculated and circulated out of the nomenclature entirely? 

Is this reasonable?

Negative. 

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:49 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Luster matters but what will really blow your mind is that the first coins produced from new dies will have diminished or no luster, or that a coin with eyepopping luster is in fact a real dog due to die wear, or not being fully struck up, etc..  

Okay, that I didn't need to know.  

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:49 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

determining MS from UNC.

Same thing essentially.

I corrected the Typo. Thanks. 

[Henri Charriere]

I have nothing to substantiate my position but I am certain many a matte proof has been mistaken for and uncirculated coin.

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:49 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Not accurate but disturbance or lack of luster will downgrade the coin, doesn't mean it doesn't grade MS/UNC. Have you checked out the ANA's grading standards? https://www.money.org/official-grading-standards/

CACG uses this to the ANA to the letter? 

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 11:58 AM, Henri Charriere said:

I have nothing to substantiate my position but I am certain many a matte proof has been mistaken for and uncirculated coin.

Can you expand on this? 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:03 PM, Carterofmars said:

CACG uses this to the ANA to the letter? 

Yes, I believe they use the ANA grading standards or some version of it, all TPG's do. How they interpret/implement it is another matter. My understanding is that CACG holds tighter to the ANA grading standards, technical grading, as opposed to other TPG's.

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:26 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

My understanding is that CACG holds tighter to the ANA grading standards, technical grading, as opposed to other TPG's.

 Well, that's critically important.  The grading company adhering as close to the standards as possible is the better.  No matter how it will affect coins in slabs presently.   My opinion. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:28 PM, Carterofmars said:

Well, that's critically important.  The grading company adhering as close to the standards as possible is the better.  No matter how it will affect coins in slabs presently.   My opinion. 

Collectors should learn how to grade themselves, use the ANA grading standards as a base but remember each coin series will have its nuances, and develop their own taste in coins based on what they like or place more importance on, booming luster vs sharp details, etc.. Also, look at a lot of coins, I mean a lot, to develop their skill set/eye.

Market grading vs technical grading for the masses, it doesn't really come into play for me at the moment since I collect mainly world coins and at present the TPG's that do grade world coins do so similarly for the most part. Haven't really formed an opinion on it yet, don't know that I will ever really need to either. The coin is the coin, judge it for what it is.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:04 PM, Carterofmars said:

Can you expand on this? 

NYPD:  In a nutshell, Ms.Arrius, the eyewitnesses, the tape, all suggest he was shot in a drive-by...

Ms. ARRIUS:  A Drive-by?  He said he"d be back in 3 minutes.

NYPD:  I'm sorry.

Ms. ARRIUS:  I TOLD HIM NOT TO SAY A WORD ABOUT THOSE UNCS AND MATTE PROOFS!!!!  

[Sandon]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:23 AM, Carterofmars said:

If there's any disturbance to the luster of a minted coin, then it's not mint state, no matter how that disturbance occurred- rub, friction, wear.   

   This is incorrect. Every coin minted for circulation and handled in bulk has disturbance to its luster in the form of bag marks, nicks, and scrapes (sometimes called "luster grazes") from coin-to-coin contact. These disturbances are distinguishable from circulation wear or "rub", which is dull, while the results of coin-to-coin contact are shiny. Only individually handled collectors' issues that would grade MS 69-70 by current grading standards (ANA or commercial) may be completely free of such disturbances, at least under low magnification.

   Luster, defined by PCGS as "the strength and pattern of light reflected off a coin", plays different roles in grading circulated and uncirculated (or mint state, the terms being synonymous) coins.

   Luster is not expected to be present at all on coins grading below Extremely Fine. The ANA Grading Guide (7th and most recent edition, 2013) states for some series, such as Barber and Walking Liberty half dollars, that at EF-40 "traces of mint luster may still show", while for others such as Franklin half dollars and Morgan and Peace dollars, "part of the mint luster is still present".  At EF-45, either "part" or "half" of the original mint luster should show, depending on the series. Coins grading AU 50 are supposed to have "some", "half", or "three quarters" of the luster present, again depending on the series. For most series, a coin grading AU 55 is supposed to have at least three quarters of the luster present, and for coins grading AU 58 the only breaks in luster due to wear would be at the identified high points of the design.

   For uncirculated/mint state coins, it is the quality of the luster that is supposed to constitute one of the four factors used in arriving at a mint state grade, the other factors being service preservation, strike and "eye appeal".  The ANA Grading Guide spells out the expected quality of luster, as well, as other characteristics, for each numerical grade for such coins as Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and double eagles.  For coins grading MS 60 to MS 62, luster "may be original or impaired", for MS 63 "original or slightly impaired", for MS 64 "average" but "fully original", for MS 65 "fully original", for MS 66-67 "above average" as well as "fully original", for MS 68 "attractive" as well as "fully original", and for MS 69-70 both "very attractive" and "fully original". Remember that luster is just one of the four factors, so a coin with original but dull luster but a strong strike and decent surface preservation and overall pleasing eye appeal may be graded MS 65, as well as a coin with much brighter and frostier luster but a slightly weak strike and a fair number of contact marks.

   The commercial grading services may be interpreting some of these standards differently or loosely, but interpretations of such complex yet subjective standards are going to vary somewhat from one person to another, regardless of experience. Even the ANA Grading Guide states (for example at p. 252 regarding Walking Liberty half dollars), "These coins often show minor weaknesses or friction spots even though they may never have been used in circulation. Such coins are difficult to distinguish and are sometimes considered to be Mint State rather than About Uncirculated, when they have superior eye appeal, strike, or appearance."

Edited Wednesday at 11:39 PM by Sandon
closed paren

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:06 PM, Sandon said:

This is incorrect. Every coin minted for circulation and handled in bulk has disturbance to its luster in the form of bag marks, nicks, and scrapes (sometimes called "luster grazes") from coin-to-coin contact.

I'm not including contact or bag marks.  If luster is damaged by wear or rub then it's precluded from an MS designation.  Should become what I'm calling Almost Mint State or AMS.

Edited Thursday at 12:41 AM by Carterofmars

[Coinbuf]

I think you are fighting a losing battle, if this is the hill you want to die on go for it.   I will continue to use AU for the foreseeable future.

[Zebo]

Not today.

Edited Wednesday at 11:46 PM by Zebo

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:52 PM, Coinbuf said:

I think you are fighting a losing battle, if this is the hill you want to die on go for it.   I will continue to use AU for the foreseeable future.

Hill to die on?  Dude, this is a hobby.  Have fun with it.  

[RWB]

I'd prefer to get rid of "MS = Mint State" and return to the clearer term "Uncirculated."

PS: "Washington is the top-producing mint state in the nation, producing the most spearmint and peppermint. Oregon is the #2 producer of peppermint and the #4 producer of spearmint." (Washington State University)

[VKurtB]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

I'd prefer to get rid of "MS = Mint State" and return to the clearer term "Uncirculated."

PS: "Washington is the top-producing mint state in the nation, producing the most spearmint and peppermint. Oregon is the #2 producer of peppermint and the #4 producer of spearmint." (Washington State University)

Lots of wild spearmint in streams around Pennsylvania farm fields, too. The Alabama streams are useless, unless you’re hunting for long lost filthy Roll Tide ball caps.