Market Grading vs. Technical Grading / The Presence of Wear-Rub-/Friction 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/1/2024 at 5:48 PM, samclemen3991 said:

Actually goldfinger you are getting one statement without any context.  In the 1990's several things were going on all at the same time.  One thing was that some people in the coin markets were trying to market coins as being graded so consistently that they advocated a sight unseen market. 

That was always ridiculous as no 2 coins are exactly alike so to treat them like shares of stock was idiotic.  There WAS more liquidity after the TPGs and you COULD buy without seeing a coin in-hand in some cases....but electronic networks to buy-and-sell sight-unseen was a pipe dream.  And even that low liquidity crashed after the 1990 Coin Bubble popped. 

On 7/1/2024 at 5:48 PM, samclemen3991 said:

You also had people who were trying to turn rare coins into a fungible investment tool.  There were several groups who tried to offer rare coin "Money market" funds that were suppose to hold "fixed" grade coins that would be held say 2 years , then  sold at large profits.  On top of that you had the open competition for "which" grading service was suppose to be the "True" market maker when establishing a supposed grading standard.  The comment he was making at the time was  based on too small of a sampling to meet statistical standards but DID expose that even the people who were suppose to be the top experts and graders could not be counted on for such exacting results.  James

Yes, we've discussed that in other threads....over ATS someone who was actually marketing a fund then chimed in...that definitely helped propel the market up to the Summer 1990 high.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/1/2024 at 8:26 PM, VKurtB said:

What I am saying is that there must be a continuum of grades that does not have exceptions because of ANY single factor, NOT EVEN CABINET FRICTION!!!! A little cabinet friction with an exceptional planchet, booming luster, and a strong strike HAS TO BE A 63ish grade, maybe even 64. If it’s worth “64 money”, then dammit, it IS A 64!!!

Like Vincent Gambini in "My Cousin Vinny"....you make a clear, coherent, rational argument. 

But some collectors are like Judge Chamberlain Haller:  DENIED !!!  

[VKurtB]

On 7/2/2024 at 6:31 AM, Henri Charriere said:

I believe I now understand I the replies in this tope. I was shocked by the remarks made by Kurt, but on deep reflection, fully agree.

To borrow Sandon's expression, a coin's "surface preservation" can be complete, save for a ding or a single  difficult to ignore single-instance blow that had been inflicted upon it it years past.

Famous example I have referred to repeatedly in past posts, namely, the wound on Liberty's leg (1933 Double Eagle) which was evidently taken into consideration resulting in a MS-65 overall assessment. No demerits for wear, but a tacit acknowledgment that graders could not allow post-mint damage to go un-noticed.. I am man enough to admit I owe the gods of grading an apology. Now all of the foregoing makes sense.

You don’t have to go to such an über-rare example. Consider the 1935-S and 1936-D so-called (misnamed) San Diego commemorative half dollars, actually the California Pacific International Exposition. The vast majority have OBVIOUS obverse and reverse rub, so obvious that even a rank beginner can see them. It doesn’t stop them from being graded MS66 and better. Don’t make me go dig out my examples. It’s hot in my man cave.

[RWB]

The only approach to "grading" a coin or medal is one which objectively (or as close as possible) identifies and describes the amount of abrasion and post-striking marks on the surfaces. Any obvious subjective descriptors must NEVER be part of the condition. Those are matters for discussion between buyer and seller, or information added by a seller (auction, dealer, etc.) independent of grade.

Any coin with wear/abrasion, regardless of the cute name applied to the condition such as "rub," "slider," 'virtually Unc," can never be called "Uncirculated." That is by definition and not subject to "interpretation" or barefaced lies.

So-called "market grading" is inherently fraudulent; it deliberately mixes objective and subjective assessments for the purpose of puffing up price. It continues to break the explicit promise of the major TPGs to never allow money (coin value) to influence their delivered opinion.

Certainly, some aspect of the business of coin selling will survive -- after all, fools still buy time shares -- but the pervasive deception and greed, combined with expanding exploitation of ignorance will eventually strangle the hobby.

[Just Bob]

On 7/1/2024 at 6:26 PM, VKurtB said:

What I am saying is that there must be a continuum of grades that does not have exceptions because of ANY single factor, NOT EVEN CABINET FRICTION!!!! A little cabinet friction with an exceptional planchet, booming luster, and a strong strike HAS TO BE A 63ish grade, maybe even 64. If it’s worth “64 money”, then dammit, it IS A 64!!!

I have twice typed long, multi-paragraph responses to your post, and both times they disappeared when I hit the green button.  It isn’t worth the effort to try it a third time, as I am sure we will revisit this subject at some point in the future. Maybe I will try again then.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:29 AM, Just Bob said:

I have twice typed long, multi-paragraph responses to your post, and both times they disappeared when I hit the green button.  It isn’t worth the effort to try it a third time, as I am sure we will revisit this subject at some point in the future. Maybe I will try again then.

For lengthy posts, always good to CTRL-C and save it in Word, an email draft, etc.

I've had that happen to me and it's a giant PITA.  You spend 15-20 minutes composing a lengthy post with lots of responses to 3-4 points made by someone else and it goes to pot. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:07 AM by GoldFinger1969

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:29 AM, Just Bob said:

I have twice typed long, multi-paragraph responses to your post, and both times they disappeared when I hit the green button.  It isn’t worth the effort to try it a third time, as I am sure we will revisit this subject at some point in the future. Maybe I will try again then.

Happens a lot to me, seems to be connected to how long you take to compose a post.  Usually if I leave the thread and then come back what I wrote will still be in the reply window, saved,  and I can reply with it to the thread without retyping. 

[Carterofmars]

Luster is the absolute most important aspect when determining MS from UNC.  If there's any disturbance to the luster of a minted coin, then it's not mint state, no matter how that disturbance occurred- rub, friction, wear.   

It seems to me that it's more important to not think in terms of circulation/uncirculated as having been or not having been used in commerce, but think in terms of that mint state- is that luster in tact, absolutely.

Might it be better to do away with the term about uncirculated and replace it with about mint state instead?  Get the words uncirculated and circulated out of the nomenclature entirely? 

Is this reasonable? 

Edited Wednesday at 01:17 PM by Carterofmars
Correcting syntax.

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:29 AM, Just Bob said:

I have twice typed long, multi-paragraph responses to your post, and both times they disappeared when I hit the green button.  It isn’t worth the effort to try it a third time, as I am sure we will revisit this subject at some point in the future. Maybe I will try again then.

I periodically highlight and select copy while typing lengthy responses.  This way if I lose the page, I just go back and paste the last copy I did. 

Hope that helps.  Losing a lengthy reply is frustrating as heck. 

[Henri Charriere]

🐓: By jove, I think they've got it!

[Just Bob]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:06 AM, Carterofmars said:

I periodically highlight and select copy while typing lengthy responses.  This way if I lose the page, I just go back and paste the last copy I did. 

Hope that helps.  Losing a lengthy reply is frustrating as heck. 

I wish someone would tell me how to do that on an iPad. I tried multiple times, but never could get it to work.

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:15 PM, Just Bob said:

I wish someone would tell me how to do that on an iPad. I tried multiple times, but never could get it to work.

To copy and paste on iPad, you can

• Tap and hold the text or image you want to copy until a menu appears.
• Tap Copy or Cut to copy or cut the selected content.
• Tap and hold the location where you want to paste the content until a menu appears.
• Tap Paste to insert the content.

[Just Bob]

On 7/3/2024 at 2:02 PM, Carterofmars said:

To copy and paste on iPad, you can

• Tap and hold the text or image you want to copy until a menu appears.
• Tap Copy or Cut to copy or cut the selected content.
• Tap and hold the location where you want to paste the content until a menu appears.
• Tap Paste to insert the content.

I tapped and held until I was blue in the face, but all I got was an oval shaped magnifying glass. 

[Just Bob]

Hey! I finally got it figured out! I wasn’t tapping properly. Go figure.

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:25 PM, Just Bob said:

Hey! I finally got it figured out! I wasn’t tapping properly. Go figure.

Cool.  

[Just Bob]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:35 PM, Carterofmars said:

Cool.  

Thanks for the assist.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:01 AM, Carterofmars said:

Luster is the absolute most important aspect when determining MS from UNC.  If there's any disturbance to the luster of a minted coin, then it's not mint state, no matter how that disturbance occurred- rub, friction, wear. 

Agreed...this is sort of the acid test to confirm it's not been worn, I guess.

But looking for "luster breaks" can itself be kind of tough.  I can SEE luster itself but it's tougher to see a luster break, particularly if the break is 5% or less of the coin's surface area.  How do I know that a change in luster is a break instead of just low-luster on a high point compared to stronger luster on the rest of the coin ?

I guess they probably teach this in grading courses so the answer is probably simple, huh?

Edited Thursday at 01:13 AM by GoldFinger1969

[Carterofmars]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Agreed...this is sort of the acid test to confirm it's not been worn, I guess.

But looking for "luster breaks" can itself be kind of tough.  I can SEE luster itself but it's tougher to see a luster break, particularly if the break is 5% or less of the coin's surface area.  How do I know that a change in luster is a break instead of just low-luster on a high point compared to stronger luster on the rest of the coin ?

I guess they probably teach this in grading courses so the answer is probably simple, huh?

Excellent point.  I was thinking about this problem myself.  I was twirling a coin I have with what looks like an above average luster and was wondering how the naked eye can discern.  It can't.  TPG will have to utilize something like this:

AmScope SM-4T Series Trinocular Zoom Stereo Microscope 7X-45X Magnific

Edited Thursday at 01:26 AM by Carterofmars

[Henri Charriere]

Maybe we ought to get a 2d opinion.  Up to 45x magnification, huh?  This delectable morsel is too precious to pass over.  Ricky, see if @VKurtB is lurking about the periphery.  

[VKurtB]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:29 AM, Just Bob said:

I have twice typed long, multi-paragraph responses to your post, and both times they disappeared when I hit the green button.  It isn’t worth the effort to try it a third time, as I am sure we will revisit this subject at some point in the future. Maybe I will try again then.

I’ve had that happen too. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/4/2024 at 5:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Maybe we ought to get a 2d opinion.  Up to 45x magnification, huh?  This delectable morsel is too precious to pass over.  Ricky, see if @VKurtB is lurking about the periphery.  

The BRAND of mine is the same, but the model is different. Anything that does NOT get down as low as 3x is pretty useless to me, and 45x is way too much.