Why Someday Moderns Will be Hot. 0

[Henri Charriere]

@cladking :  Not to worry.  My tirade was wholly tongue-in-cheek and the truth is I enjoy reading everything you write. It was you who informed me clads were remarkable innovations and you were honest enough to acknowledge the earliest ones -- greasy and totally lacking definition in their features -- have since improved dramatically. Your observations concerning the Red Book's pricing information ring true because even today it is impossible to obtain current information on the highest grade coins. If I were younger and never experienced receiving silver in change I would likely feel the same way you do. I appreciate your assertiveness while making assertions and the fact you do not resort to name-calling and hurling insults.  After all, it's a hobby. Nothing to get all bent out of shape about. My next and last gold rooster a unique tin uniface on a hexagonal planchet is in the mail and should reach me by next week. I have never contested anything you have ever said about "moderns" because I retracted my antennae on them decades ago. I simply do not know enough to engage anyone in intelligent discourse about them. 🐓 

[cladking]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:46 AM, Henri Charriere said:

@cladking :  Not to worry.  My tirade was wholly tongue-in-cheek and the truth is I enjoy reading everything you write. It was you who informed me clads were remarkable innovations and you were honest enough to acknowledge the earliest ones -- greasy and totally lacking definition in their features -- have since improved dramatically. Your observations concerning the Red Book's pricing information ring true because even today it is impossible to obtain current information on the highest grade coins. If I were younger and never experienced receiving silver in change I would likely feel the same way you do. I appreciate your assertiveness while making assertions and the fact you do not resort to name-calling and hurling insults.  After all, it's a hobby. Nothing to get all bent out of shape about. My next and last gold rooster a unique tin uniface on a hexagonal planchet is in the mail and should reach me by next week. I have never contested anything you have ever said about "moderns" because I retracted my antennae on them decades ago. I simply do not know enough to engage anyone in intelligent discourse about them. 🐓 

@Just Bob is very knowledgeable and I had to go back and edit.  But the point is that the vast majority of baby boomers have little or no use for clads and a few generations of collectors have followed in their foot steps until this latest one who are much more striking out on their own.  This is in part caused by the total lack of encouragement they get for the "treasures" they find in circulation.  And, no, I'm not talking road kill that sells for hundreds on eBay but interesting or desirable coins they get in the bank, find in change, or spot in a mint set.  

Most people who have historically paid much money for price guides have little use for moderns. Of course now Redbook probably sells a lot more issues to modern collectors than to old time collectors.  Still (I haven't seen the '25 yet) prices for moderns are unrealistically low.  

I'm sure there are many reasons for this including lack of interest by the publishers and readers and markets that are very difficult to measure.  But the fact is collecting moderns is still like the wild west.  There are no maps and danger and opportunity abound.  There is very little competition for even the most desirable coins.  

Over the years I've spoken or corresponded with many of the publishers and I've probably had some effect even though I'm not certain that effect has always been beneficial.  Just reporting a bunch of higher prices is problematical in many ways.  There are numerous benchmarks that can be used to see where the problems lie since most nice moderns come from mint sets so prices should usually correlate to the availability in those sets.  The bottom line is these markets can be efficient until the pricing is accurate and the pricing can't be accurate until there are more collectors allowing price discovery.  I can't help but feel this will move more quickly going forward.  

[zadok]

On 6/6/2024 at 2:42 PM, cladking said:

@Just Bob is very knowledgeable and I had to go back and edit.  But the point is that the vast majority of baby boomers have little or no use for clads and a few generations of collectors have followed in their foot steps until this latest one who are much more striking out on their own.  This is in part caused by the total lack of encouragement they get for the "treasures" they find in circulation.  And, no, I'm not talking road kill that sells for hundreds on eBay but interesting or desirable coins they get in the bank, find in change, or spot in a mint set.  

Most people who have historically paid much money for price guides have little use for moderns. Of course now Redbook probably sells a lot more issues to modern collectors than to old time collectors.  Still (I haven't seen the '25 yet) prices for moderns are unrealistically low.  

I'm sure there are many reasons for this including lack of interest by the publishers and readers and markets that are very difficult to measure.  But the fact is collecting moderns is still like the wild west.  There are no maps and danger and opportunity abound.  There is very little competition for even the most desirable coins.  

Over the years I've spoken or corresponded with many of the publishers and I've probably had some effect even though I'm not certain that effect has always been beneficial.  Just reporting a bunch of higher prices is problematical in many ways.  There are numerous benchmarks that can be used to see where the problems lie since most nice moderns come from mint sets so prices should usually correlate to the availability in those sets.  The bottom line is these markets can be efficient until the pricing is accurate and the pricing can't be accurate until there are more collectors allowing price discovery.  I can't help but feel this will move more quickly going forward.  

...im not even sure that the hobby is increasing in numbers of collectors period n find it difficult to believe there is now nor going to be an increase of collectors for moderns...at recent coin shows ive attended the volume of sales were bullion related by investors not collectors, the publishing of new reference books or price guides is not going to reverse this trend...i just this past week attended an estate sale where 200 plus mint/proof sets were passed by the auctioneer due to no bids over face value...i will be attending another such estate auction tomorrow where there r several type/date set albums assembled from mint sets, my max bid for these will be melt value of the silver n actually hope i dont get them as there is no market for the non-silver coins other than dumping them in another auction n hope they sell...im just not seeing any of this increased interest that u r promoting in moderns....

[cladking]

On 6/7/2024 at 9:13 AM, zadok said:

.i just this past week attended an estate sale where 200 plus mint/proof sets were passed by the auctioneer due to no bids over face value...i will be attending another such estate auction tomorrow where there r several type/date set albums assembled from mint sets, my max bid for these will be melt value of the silver n actually hope i dont get them as there is no market for the non-silver coins other than dumping them in another auction n hope they sell...im just not seeing any of this increased interest that u r promoting in moderns....

Few people are aware of this but many of the companies that auction off estates buy mint and proof sets.  They are far and away the biggest buyers of mint sets from local dealers for the last quarter century and have bought more mint sets by far than all the retail sales of modern mint sets since 1965.  They also buy a lot of the proof sets.  These are sold at estate auctions because the general public is often enthralled by seeing our current coins in perfect condition.  The sets are usually bid up to staggering sums often more than triple bid.  Collectors and dealers tend to be wise to this and simply don't go.  

I was at one auction back around '95 when I first saw this.  It's possible they really were part of the estate but this fellow had a few 1982 and '83 souvenir sets and the '82-P had a really nice gemmy quarter  that was about the 10th best I've ever seen before or since.  I stuck around planning to outbid anyone (up to $50).   At the time it was virtually unknown and normally available for a few dollars.  All of these sets sold for more than $50.  Five nice '78 mint sets that bid at $6 each went for $15 each.  They were hardly that nice.  I was the biggest buyer for this kind of material in those days and I walked away empty handed. My guess is that were no coin dealers or collectors there because they couldn't outbid the public.  Through sheer coincidence there were no members of the public interested in bidding. 

[cladking]

People are going to be amazed just how shallow the supply of modern is when a market develops.  The mint sets that don't sell to estate sales mostly go to wholesalers who destroy them.  How do you think those 1978 mint sets from my auction are doing today?  Do you think these still survive and were stored properly? The odds are very much against it.  Even if they were shoved in a safety deposit box which is highly improbable the coins should have been removed from the plastic and soaked in acetone 10 years ago or the tarnish may already be permanent.  

There is simply no supply.  The estate auction will take the sets back to the shop they bought them from and take a significant loss since they pay 10 or 20% over bid and the dealer will buy them back 30% under bid.  The dealer will eventually either bust these sets up himself or he will ship them off to a wholesaler who will bust them up. Where will the supply come from in twenty years?  The coins are gone and there will be no "old collections" walking into coin shops because people don't collect these coins.  

Over time slabbed moderns will simply become a larger and larger percentage of all moderns because most of these coins have a 4% attrition rate and slabbed coins have a 1% attrition rate.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:44 PM, cladking said:

People are going to be amazed just how shallow the supply of modern is when a market develops.  The mint sets that don't sell to estate sales mostly go to wholesalers who destroy them.  How do you think those 1978 mint sets from my auction are doing today?  Do you think these still survive and were stored properly? The odds are very much against it.  Even if they were shoved in a safety deposit box which is highly improbable the coins should have been removed from the plastic and soaked in acetone 10 years ago or the tarnish may already be permanent.  

There is simply no supply.  The estate auction will take the sets back to the shop they bought them from and take a significant loss since they pay 10 or 20% over bid and the dealer will buy them back 30% under bid.  The dealer will eventually either bust these sets up himself or he will ship them off to a wholesaler who will bust them up. Where will the supply come from in twenty years?  The coins are gone and there will be no "old collections" walking into coin shops because people don't collect these coins.  

Over time slabbed moderns will simply become a larger and larger percentage of all moderns because most of these coins have a 4% attrition rate and slabbed coins have a 1% attrition rate.  

I don’t believe there is a significant attrition rate. By and large, all coins are somewhere, whether it’s between the boards in the front porch or in a huge glass bottle in the attic. They don’t actually disappear from existence, only from awareness.

 
In 2018, my dad’s brother (my uncle) died. There was no clergy available for the memorial service so I officiated (it was June, on a Saturday). His power of attorney and executor was my sister. He had a wife, who was in bad mental condition, who had been a close friend of my mother. The same sister became her caretaker/power of attorney/executor. The wife died in 2022. We are now nearly halfway through 2024 and there are STILL several paint cans full of coins they left behind that have not been looked at. They run the gamut from cents to silver dollars. When my uncle died in 2018, he still owned the pair of shoes he was “mustered out” of the Army in in WW2. He kept having them repaired. He was THAT frugal. I once happened upon the two of them years ago at the local indoor mall. They liked to “walk the mall”. He told me that not only couldn’t he find anything he wanted there, he couldn’t find anything there he’d trade for anything he had. 
 

My sister wants me to evaluate the paint cans full of coins, which with probably happen later this year. @cladking would likely count those coins as “attrition” Attrition my tuchas! They’ve just been hiding where a man born 107 years ago put them, when he was a young man. There’s lots of silver dimes, quarters, and halves, Barber mostly, and lots of Buffalo nickels, Wheat cents and Indian head cents. None have been checked in over 60 years. 
 

If *I* demise suddenly, there will also be about 500 pounds of coins in rolls and bottles to be looked through. 

Edited June 10 by VKurtB

[cladking]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:18 PM, VKurtB said:

I don’t believe there is a significant attrition rate. By and large, all coins are somewhere, whether it’s between the boards in the front porch or in a huge glass bottle in the attic. They don’t actually disappear from existence, only from awareness.

Well, a lot of these coins that have suffered attrition or been lost forever really will be found for many centuries.  Any in the ground will be highly corroded because base metals don't survive in any type of soil.  Not even houses survive for centuries and those castles in Europe require constant maintenance after they are rebuilt.  Most of these coins though really were destroyed entirely or at least entirely enough.  A quarter that sat on the floor in a laundromat for may years behind a washer and exposed to the chemicals will be virtually unrecognizable and will be thrown in the trash and added to landfill where it will continue to degrade.  This quarter was probably a heavily worn and poorly made coin anyway but if its remnants are ever found it won't matter even if it started out as a rare variety.  Many of the missing coins show up in municipal incinerators and are destroyed before being returned to the mint and melted to make new coins.  Many more fall out of the large cubes into which cars are crushed before being melted in electric furnaces.  Most coins remain in the car yet some usually mangled and bent coins do fall out and some will be repaired and put back in circulation.  These have a high attrition rate because only a small percentage of them will sell on eBay for $1000 and most will eventually find a machine they won't operate and be tossed in the trash and shipped to the nearest incinerator.  When houses are flooded they are often bulldozed into large piles and the piles destroyed.  Coins will be scattered and buried.  The biggest killer though might be house and building fires.  The coins are often simply melted into small or large clumps.  People drop coins into wells and chasms to estimate their depth.  Niagara Falls was shut off some years back for maintenance and they recovered seven truckloads of coins from the bottom most of which were thrown in for "good luck".  These coins were often in deplorable condition, unsurprisingly, and of course most zinc coins didn't survive at all. 

Coins suffer misadventure of all sorts as well as loss.  I once spun around in mid-step and was surprised that i did so on a copper penny.  The coin was scratched very much like we call "rolling machine damage".  What are the odds.

The coins simply are everywhere so they get lost.  Obviously for the last 30 years they are less ubiquitous because of credit cards and electronic payments but they still accumulate in places they can be lost or destroyed and everytime they change hands they are susceptible to becoming a statistic.  We're approaching a 60% loss on 1966 quarters and perhaps a 70% loss on 1967 dimes.  But it's not just this loss that is important here but the extreme degradation to which the survivors have been exposed.  There are very few collectible 1966 quarters surviving.  This is caused by two factors; the coins were horribly made and now they are degraded by extreme wear and damage.  It is the damage that might be the most important factor.  They are just covered in scratches and are ugly.  They have staining and tarnish as well as deep gouges and even bends.   As a very common date you can still find an attractive VF without extreme effort but if everyone continues to neglect these coins this nice VF might be the very next quarter to fall through the floor boards.  

 

There is no means to stop the few surviving nice clads from degradation and loss other than coin collectors.  Whether they start being collected or not they are all going to be gone in another 10 or 20 years.  Whether we're still using coins or not  these will be gone.  If the government stops making coins these will all be gathered up and used to make appliance Just as was done in Europe, South America, and much of Asia.  Quarters simply transition from buying toasters to being toasters.  

Every thing made by man suffers a 1% attrition rate but coins are always much higher.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/10/2024 at 9:54 AM, cladking said:

Well, a lot of these coins that have suffered attrition or been lost forever really will be found for many centuries.  Any in the ground will be highly corroded because base metals don't survive in any type of soil.  Not even houses survive for centuries and those castles in Europe require constant maintenance after they are rebuilt.  Most of these coins though really were destroyed entirely or at least entirely enough.  A quarter that sat on the floor in a laundromat for may years behind a washer and exposed to the chemicals will be virtually unrecognizable and will be thrown in the trash and added to landfill where it will continue to degrade.  This quarter was probably a heavily worn and poorly made coin anyway but if its remnants are ever found it won't matter even if it started out as a rare variety.  Many of the missing coins show up in municipal incinerators and are destroyed before being returned to the mint and melted to make new coins.  Many more fall out of the large cubes into which cars are crushed before being melted in electric furnaces.  Most coins remain in the car yet some usually mangled and bent coins do fall out and some will be repaired and put back in circulation.  These have a high attrition rate because only a small percentage of them will sell on eBay for $1000 and most will eventually find a machine they won't operate and be tossed in the trash and shipped to the nearest incinerator.  When houses are flooded they are often bulldozed into large piles and the piles destroyed.  Coins will be scattered and buried.  The biggest killer though might be house and building fires.  The coins are often simply melted into small or large clumps.  People drop coins into wells and chasms to estimate their depth.  Niagara Falls was shut off some years back for maintenance and they recovered seven truckloads of coins from the bottom most of which were thrown in for "good luck".  These coins were often in deplorable condition, unsurprisingly, and of course most zinc coins didn't survive at all. 

Coins suffer misadventure of all sorts as well as loss.  I once spun around in mid-step and was surprised that i did so on a copper penny.  The coin was scratched very much like we call "rolling machine damage".  What are the odds.

The coins simply are everywhere so they get lost.  Obviously for the last 30 years they are less ubiquitous because of credit cards and electronic payments but they still accumulate in places they can be lost or destroyed and everytime they change hands they are susceptible to becoming a statistic.  We're approaching a 60% loss on 1966 quarters and perhaps a 70% loss on 1967 dimes.  But it's not just this loss that is important here but the extreme degradation to which the survivors have been exposed.  There are very few collectible 1966 quarters surviving.  This is caused by two factors; the coins were horribly made and now they are degraded by extreme wear and damage.  It is the damage that might be the most important factor.  They are just covered in scratches and are ugly.  They have staining and tarnish as well as deep gouges and even bends.   As a very common date you can still find an attractive VF without extreme effort but if everyone continues to neglect these coins this nice VF might be the very next quarter to fall through the floor boards.  

 

There is no means to stop the few surviving nice clads from degradation and loss other than coin collectors.  Whether they start being collected or not they are all going to be gone in another 10 or 20 years.  Whether we're still using coins or not  these will be gone.  If the government stops making coins these will all be gathered up and used to make appliance Just as was done in Europe, South America, and much of Asia.  Quarters simply transition from buying toasters to being toasters.  

Every thing made by man suffers a 1% attrition rate but coins are always much higher.  

That entire screed strikes me as both crazy and wrong. 

[cladking]

On 6/10/2024 at 11:27 AM, VKurtB said:

That entire screed strikes me as both crazy and wrong. 

So what's your theory on why the incidence of 1965 quarters is 45% of the incidence of comparable mintages today?  

[cladking]

If you were right and there is no attrition then Why are2019 quarters with a similar mintage to the 1965 far far more common than the '65?

If there are warehouses full of worn or new '65 quarters where are they?  Why do people not bring '65 quarters into coin shops? If these were all sitting in change jars then how can 1965 quarters all wear about the same amount?    

The same applies to mint sets.  Despite far lower mintages there are far larger numbers of 2005 mint sets in coin shops than there are 1980 and far more '80's than '69's.   

It's just the way things have always been.  Mountains wear away to sand and sand wears away to virtually nothing.  Everything comes and goes and is no more.  Clads are just about gone.  The ones that survive get thinner and lighter every day.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Question....if we define moderns as anything after 1960 -- or even use 1932 -- doesn't this coincide with the Age of Coin Collecting of the Babyboomers and the Post-WW II generations ?

If so...given the volumes of these coins minted/struck....and the higher volumes stored in rolls/albums.....isn't this the OPPOSITE of the whole Baseball Card Theory where everybody used them as sound thingys on their bikes and/or flipped them and them eventually threw them out, greatly reducing the supply which is why many "modern" baseball cards are so valuable ?

[zadok]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Question....if we define moderns as anything after 1960 -- or even use 1932 -- doesn't this coincide with the Age of Coin Collecting of the Babyboomers and the Post-WW II generations ?

If so...given the volumes of these coins minted/struck....and the higher volumes stored in rolls/albums.....isn't this the OPPOSITE of the whole Baseball Card Theory where everybody used them as sound thingys on their bikes and/or flipped them and them eventually threw them out, greatly reducing the supply which is why many "modern" baseball cards are so valuable ?

...this isnt a supply demand issue in the normal sense...there is an over whelming supply n a virtually non-existence demand, i personally do not ever see this situation changing...compounding this more so is the fact that the x-y-z generations collect nothing....

[cladking]

On 6/10/2024 at 11:57 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Question....if we define moderns as anything after 1960 -- or even use 1932 -- doesn't this coincide with the Age of Coin Collecting of the Babyboomers and the Post-WW II generations ?

People quit saving new coins in 1964 and it is exactly this behavior that defines moderns: Moderns are coins made since 1964 that were not saved by collectors or the general public.  

Collectors in 1965 hated moderns (1965 coins) and they never ever stopped.  They then hated 1966 coins.  They told anyone who was interested in coins that coins made after 1964 were garbage, made in huge numbers, and would never be collectible even as garbage or things made in huge numbers.  The hobby gained very few collectors after 1964 because anyone interested in new coins was being discouraged.  It was so bad that the hobby virtually collapsed in the mid-'90's because the bread and butter coins like a '24-D cent in VF had no demand.  You couldn't give most coins away.  Only those top pop coins being pursued by wealthy baby boomers had a market.  

But by this time the modern market was beginning to develop.  There were few participants but collectively they were a minor force in the hobby.  This market is probably five or eight times the size it was in 1995 but it is still tiny.  It is so small it can't even push up  the prices of coins with populations in the 10's of thousands.  There are a few thousand collectors so anything with a population much higher than this sells for nothing.  

.

There is a new generation of collectors though many are beginners and they won't all collect moderns.  Even if they weren't being discouraged and told their treasures are trash they still wouldn't all collect moderns.  But these new collectors don't hate moderns and they don't hate clad.  To them moderns are just coins just like an '09-S VDB or a bust half.  Many are collecting moderns and many more will no matter how much they are told their eagles are just bullion or their mint sets are just pocket change.  

Not many people any longer born before WWII are actively collecting.  God bless them.   But their collections are mostly already dispersed and mostly contained very few moderns.  Most collections of those baby boomers you see at coin shows contain no or few moderns.  There are no old time clad collections containing bags, rolls, Gems, and varieties in great abundance.  There is barely even a wholesale market containing coins impounded in inventory or in transit to the next middleman.  The coins are gone.  WYSIWYG.   This was true many years ago as well.  Most rare moderns were even rare at the time of issue.  No matter how hard you looked for nice choice 1969 quarters you wouldn't find them in 1969 or in subsequent years.  They were tough because so few were made and those few were mixed in with the garbage that went into commerce.  People weren't even looking for them so they are pretty much all are lost or heavily worn today.  

.

A few people collected these and most saved what they could but I was spending 1983-P nice BU quarters as late as 1985 because I couldn't afford to save many at 25c each.   Some guy on the east coast saved a bag of every date and mint quarters but I'm sure his estate did very poorly on this $35,000+ investment.  There is still no market and the bags that would sell at a good premium today would probably contain no Gems and no varieties.   The lost opportunity costs are staggering.  I would wager than many of the commoner dates were just dumped in circulation.  There is simply no generation that has or had these coins and now that a new generation wants them they are nowhere to be found.  I've been selling into the strength but mine are almost all gone now.   Where is the future supply?  

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/10/2024 at 1:17 PM, zadok said:

...this isnt a supply demand issue in the normal sense...there is an over whelming supply n a virtually non-existence demand, i personally do not ever see this situation changing...compounding this more so is the fact that the x-y-z generations collect nothing....

I agree....it's one reason why I can at least make a case for numismatic demand for Saints and Morgans:   large coins....iconic coins...great artwork...also a way to play gold and silver among the bullion coins.

Premiums for many are reasonable:  if you pay $5,000 for a Saint with gold at $2,400 at least you have a floor.  Not so if you pay $300 or more for a quarter that has a FV of $0.25.  

Edited June 10 by GoldFinger1969

[cladking]

On 6/10/2024 at 2:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Premiums for many are reasonable:  if you pay $5,000 for a Saint with gold at $2,400 at least you have a floor.  Not so if you pay $300 or more for a quarter that has a FV of $0.25.  

I understand your statements here and even largely agree with them.  

But I doubt you can imagine just how absurd this would sound to a young coin collector or on how many levels it is absurd.  

For instance not many 12 year old collectors are going to be paying $30 for a clad quarter much less $300.    With $30 spent on a nice '83-P quarter he has only $29.75  at risk.  $5000 on a Saint puts $2,600 at risk.   Really it's a great deal more than that because gold could drop as well.   At least the value of the copper and nickel in the quarter can't drop more than several cents.  If he's buying coins with Christmas, report card, and birthday money he's never going to be able to assemble a set of Saints even in cull condition but after he buys the quarter he's half way home to a pretty nice collection.  Just for the cost of grading and authenticating one Saint he can assemble an entire set of coins from circulation.  

What would it matter the cost of a Saint if he wanted a clad dime collection?   Why would a kid with a Whitman folder even care whether his clad coins will go up or down?   

You can't go to the bank and get Saints to pick through to make a collection but you can certainly get rolls of dimes for face value and find new specimens to complete and upgrade your circulation set.  If you collect only BU then you can still add the later dates from pocket change.

.

Most newbies are not going to understand your point.  

I do and the reason I don't agree with it is that investment isn't about making a lot of money.  A $5000 Saint going to $10,000 isn't nearly as good as "50" $100 modern going to $1000.  In both cases you start with $5000 but in the latter case you end up with a $45,000 profit instead of a mere $5000 profit.  The only way the Saint can increase so much is if the dollar becomes virtually worthless and you'd have done twice as well if you had bought two cull saints instead of one slabbed.  

[cladking]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:17 PM, zadok said:

...this isnt a supply demand issue in the normal sense...there is an over whelming supply n a virtually non-existence demand, i personally do not ever see this situation changing...compounding this more so is the fact that the x-y-z generations collect nothing....

People who believe in an overwhelming supply of moderns have never looked for a nice attractive 1969 quarter.  This coin is the posterchild of garbage.  Of course finding one in circulation is largely a thing of the past.   There are very few left and those that survive are ugly poorly struck junk.   Good luck finding one of these poor coins.   Finding them in most coin shops is also largely a thing of the past.  Most dealers try to keep one or two of everything in stock but this is the hardest to keep.  They keep expecting someone to walk in and buy mint and proof sets but it hardly ever happens except maybe a few small sales at Christmas time.  If you do find a '69 set it will be ugly junk.  Not only was the '69 mint set coin poorly made but now the vast majority are tarnished and almost all of them have at least a heavy haze.  He won't have a folder of clad quarters sitting right next to his folder of indian cents or Mercury dimes because there's no market.   

So where do get a nice '69 quarter in solid ch BU (MS-64)?   Where do you get one in nice attractive VF?    Who do you call if you need a roll for your business or for some promotion.  You can't even lay your hands on culls or pristine MS-60's.   Where do you get those '69's that were tough even in 1969?   

Despite selling so many coins I still do have some financial interests in clads.  I've sold over 95% of most of what I had including some of the very high grades.   But I do still have a few that are too low to grade as well as some top notch coins.  But this isn't where I expect to see sharp price increases.  I am still expecting the scarcities in MS-63 and MS-64 to come under intense buying pressure.  They aren't all that much scarcer than MS-60 coins but they look that much nicer.  Collectors are going to avoid low end clad not because it's common but because most of it is ugly.  Most of the clad dimes, for instance, before 2017 are elusive in rolls and most of the pre'98 dimes are elusive in nice chBU.  If not for mint sets almost all the clads would be extremely tough.  But mint sets won't save '69 coins from being tough because the mint sets are mostly gone and the few survivors are tarnished.  

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB :  Paint cans do not constitute an ideal storage environment..  At the very least, transfer the coins to a more suitable receptacle. I belive you may be very disappointed with what has occurred to them over decades of time. No hoard has ever produced a problem-free bounty.

[Fenntucky Mike]

1965 quarters are one of the most frequent pieces I get back in change, it's amazing how many I still see in circulation.

2019's, , I don't really pay attention to those. The 1965's I notice because every time I think I may have gotten some silver back I take a look and, yep, 1965.

[cladking]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:57 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

1965 quarters are one of the most frequent pieces I get back in change, it's amazing how many I still see in circulation.

2019's, , I don't really pay attention to those. The 1965's I notice because every time I think I may have gotten some silver back I take a look and, yep, 1965.

There are still some 700,000,000 of these left.  They are thinner and much worse for wear but many survive. Curiously it's one of the easiest older dates to find a coin that isn't cull also.  These will be only VG or F usually but they aren't cull.  There will typically be an example in every other roll. 5 or 10% look fairly good.  It is also the only early date with a lot of outliers in grade,  Some people hoard them because it's first or they think they contain a little silver so some spend less time in circulation.  

But the some 1.7 billion 2019 quarters mostly all still survive so they outnumber the '65 in circulation.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:43 AM, cladking said:

There are still some 700,000,000 of these left.  They are thinner and much worse for wear but many survive. Curiously it's one of the easiest older dates to find a coin that isn't cull also.  These will be only VG or F usually but they aren't cull.  There will typically be an example in every other roll. 5 or 10% look fairly good.  It is also the only early date with a lot of outliers in grade,  Some people hoard them because it's first or they think they contain a little silver so some spend less time in circulation.  

But the some 1.7 billion 2019 quarters mostly all still survive so they outnumber the '65 in circulation.  

I have them all in BU; silver AND clad, except for four “first page of the Dansco album” pieces. I have them in lower condition, just not in BU yet. It’s always easier to get them while they’re new. I did, and I continue to do so. 

Edited Thursday at 04:23 PM by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:40 AM, Henri Charriere said:

@VKurtB :  Paint cans do not constitute an ideal storage environment..  At the very least, transfer the coins to a more suitable receptacle. I belive you may be very disappointed with what has occurred to them over decades of time. No hoard has ever produced a problem-free bounty.

Even paint cans hammered closed? Uncle Robert owned a Mary Carter paint franchise. 

Edited Thursday at 08:41 PM by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/10/2024 at 1:17 PM, zadok said:

...this isnt a supply demand issue in the normal sense...there is an over whelming supply n a virtually non-existence demand, i personally do not ever see this situation changing...compounding this more so is the fact that the x-y-z generations collect nothing....

Gentle reader, you can rest assured if there was the remotest chance there was something to this, zadok would be its srongest, most vocal proponent.

Me?  Sorry no way you can convince me paint cans which held chemical concoctions, however well scrubbed and sanitized, are a suitable environment for the storage of coins. If they sat for decades in a well-ventilated area, they've got a shot. But n-o-o-o, now we have since learned they were hammered shut, intentionally, in hermetically-sealed metal containers... for decades.

🐓  :  On the level, Kurt... what do you attribute these phatasmagoric wildly psychedelic toning patterns on these old coins?

VKurtB :  Ya got me Ricky, I have no idea what could have caused this and you know me, this is nowhere near the tasteful toning I like. (I'll have to make a note of that proprietary formula they use to remove unsightly garishness in my next trip to Berlin.)  

 

, 

[zadok]

On 6/13/2024 at 7:10 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Gentle reader, you can rest assured if there was the remotest chance there was something to this, zadok would be its srongest, most vocal proponent.

Me?  Sorry no way you can convince me paint cans which held chemical concoctions, however well scrubbed and sanitized, are a suitable environment for the storage of coins. If they sat for decades in a well-ventilated area, they've got a shot. But n-o-o-o, now we have since learned they were hammered shut, intentionally, in hermetically-sealed metal containers... for decades.

🐓  :  On the level, Kurt... what do you attribute these phatasmagoric wildly psychedelic toning patterns on these old coins?

VKurtB :  Ya got me Ricky, I have no idea what could have caused this and you know me, this is nowhere near the tasteful toning I like. (I'll have to make a note of that proprietary formula they use to remove unsightly garishness in my next trip to Berlin.)  

 

, 

...so so sad, the deterioration is progressing exponentially now, just a matter of time....

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/13/2024 at 7:34 PM, zadok said:

...so so sad, the deterioration is progressing exponentially now, just a matter of time....

It's been so long now but as much as I appreciate the emojis, I am wholly undeserving of your endless praise and unending adulation.  There are far worthier people deserving of your attention.

I'm sorry you missed the Puerto Rican Day parade. I tell you, I have never felt better in my life. With that latest acquisition, I feel I've arrived.  I'm due for a new User Name change. Soon as they wrap up the case of my missing coin on the set registry on the West coast, I'm done.

Edited Friday at 09:34 AM by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing

[zadok]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:42 PM, Henri Charriere said:

It's been so long now but as much as I appreciate the emojis, I am wholly undeserving of your endless praise and unending adulation.  There are far worthier people deserving of your attention.

I'm sorry you missed the Puerto Rican Day parade. I tell you, I have never felt better in my life. With that latest acquisition, I feel I've arrived.  I'm due for a new User Name change. Soon as they wrap up the case of my missing coin on the set registry on the West coast, I'm done.

...apparently incoherency is part of the advanced stages maybe one of ur east harlem neighbors can be of assistance since professional help doesnt seem to be available....

[VKurtB]

On 6/13/2024 at 6:10 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Gentle reader, you can rest assured if there was the remotest chance there was something to this, zadok would be its srongest, most vocal proponent.

Me?  Sorry no way you can convince me paint cans which held chemical concoctions, however well scrubbed and sanitized, are a suitable environment for the storage of coins. If they sat for decades in a well-ventilated area, they've got a shot. But n-o-o-o, now we have since learned they were hammered shut, intentionally, in hermetically-sealed metal containers... for decades.

🐓  :  On the level, Kurt... what do you attribute these phatasmagoric wildly psychedelic toning patterns on these old coins?

VKurtB :  Ya got me Ricky, I have no idea what could have caused this and you know me, this is nowhere near the tasteful toning I like. (I'll have to make a note of that proprietary formula they use to remove unsightly garishness in my next trip to Berlin.)  

 

, 

Sis says there’s virtually NO toning on the coins, other than brown copper. Why? Because they were kept away from the artificial toning doctors, I presume.

Edited Saturday at 04:32 AM by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/14/2024 at 3:46 PM, zadok said:

...apparently incoherency is part of the advanced stages maybe one of ur east harlem neighbors can be of assistance since professional help doesnt seem to be available....

Your concern with my health and other kind comments are always appreciated. And with my latest acquisition, you continue to bring me Good Luck. Much obliged!