Admission Fees At Coin Shows 2 2

[zadok]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:47 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve never doubted your research techniques. But do they a numismatist make? I’m less than convinced. I think the ownership aspect is important to the definition. What you do could equally apply to other “stuff”, like, for example, dishware or munitions. Not numismatics per se, although admittedly related to it. 
 

An aside: does the field of “U.S. coins struck for Puerto Rico” include 2009 five cent pieces? From anecdotal evidence, perhaps it should. 

...sometimes it serves the greater good to establish definitions for the various terms being batted around on forums such as ours here...in this case "research"...research is not like a rose is a rose is a rose, there is research n then there is research..."look,compare,compile,analyze,theorize, publish, use" does not necessarily equate to research, or at least to primary research...its intellectually best described as secondary research...most of the numismatic published material we see today is secondary research derived from public records n documents available to anyone who so desires to spend the time n effort to seek out what they r seeking...there r a few published documents that consist of "real" or "true" research or more correctly primary research but very few, those documents r created by individuals who actually conduct "hands-on" research with "real" coins n not archival records about coins...is there room for both? sure, it just depends on ones needs/wants....

 

...another word we probably should attempt to define is "numismatist"...but one word at a time....

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:19 PM, VKurtB said:

That would require a complete reversal of the owners’ viewpoint. They pretty much disdain public retail. 

Sounds like they wanted to have a dealers convention and the public to foot the bill and not cater to them or provide adequate reason to do so? It doesn't seem like many of their customers were satisfied, dealers who rely on retail, not a good way to go. So be it. 

There's plenty of time for dealer to dealer transactions at all of the major shows, small ones too, they can also pick up a phone or go online if meeting a dozen or so times at coins shows throughout the year isn't sufficient. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next year in terms of dealer attendance, change of venue, streamlining and public attendance goes. That is if there is another IMEX.

The yeas are leading 8 to 5 in the poll, I'm a little surprised by that.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[Coinbuf]

On 11/2/2023 at 2:50 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Sounds like they wanted to have a dealers convention and the public to fit the bill and not cater to them or provide adequate reason to do so? It doesn't seem like many of their customers were satisfied, dealers who rely on retail, not a good way to go. So be it. 

There's plenty of time for dealer to dealer transactions at all of the major shows, small ones too, they can also pick up a phone or go online if meeting a dozen or so times at coins shows throughout the year isn't sufficient. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next year in terms of dealer attendance, change of venue, streamlining and public attendance goes. That is if there is another IMEX.

The yeas are leading 8 to 5 in the poll, I'm a little surprised by that.

Too small a sample to be any sort of indication, I'm sure that if you ran this same poll on the PCGS forum the results would be reversed by a wide margin.

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:50 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Sounds like they wanted to have a dealers convention and the public to fit the bill and not cater to them or provide adequate reason to do so? It doesn't seem like many of their customers were satisfied, dealers who rely on retail, not a good way to go. So be it. 

There's plenty of time for dealer to dealer transactions at all of the major shows, small ones too, they can also pick up a phone or go online if meeting a dozen or so times at coins shows throughout the year isn't sufficient. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next year in terms of dealer attendance, change of venue, streamlining and public attendance goes. That is if there is another IMEX.

The yeas are leading 8 to 5 in the poll, I'm a little surprised by that.

At COINEX 2023 in London’s Mayfair section, the show had about 30 dealers. It ALSO had an entry fee of £20 that did cover both days. The exchange rate for £20 is $24.39 US. Two day show. 30 dealers, most of whom were quite upscale. Free is on the way out. The Internet meme that everything has to be free is going to destroy this hobby.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:21 PM, VKurtB said:

At COINEX 2023 in London’s Mayfair section, the show had about 30 dealers. It ALSO had an entry fee of £20 that did cover both days. The exchange rate for £20 is $24.39 US. Two day show. 30 dealers, most of whom were quite upscale. Free is on the way out. The Internet meme that everything has to be free is going to destroy this hobby.

...u previously mentioned the show promoters needed the admission fees to cover their expenses n yet did little to nothing to accommodate the fee paying collectors or anything to encourage them to attend in the future??...not a good business model....

[RWB]

I recall attending several where they could have charged an egress fee....!

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:37 PM, VKurtB said:

The $10 fee DID go to getting Steve Forbes to appear, and some awesome door prizes.

If they were made from solid, intricately-carved dark mahogany from Madagasgar, the price of admission would definitely be worth it. 🤣

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:05 PM, Henri Charriere said:

If they were made from solid, intricately-carved dark mahogany from Madagasgar, the price of admission would definitely be worth it. 🤣

They were two Fender electric guitars with amps (don't ask - I do not know the model) and pickups, plus some VERY scarce Fender 1 ounce .999 silver guitar "coins", shaped like the guitars. One of the actual guitars went to a regular attendee (by pure chance), and one to a dealer.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:15 PM, zadok said:

...u previously mentioned the show promoters needed the admission fees to cover their expenses n yet did little to nothing to accommodate the fee paying collectors or anything to encourage them to attend in the future??...not a good business model....

My advice to them is to drop the celebrities and the expensive door prizes and recruit collector-focused dealers, whatever that takes. The high end of the hobby is nice to have, but not at the expense of the other segments. They have to learn that.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Coinbuf]

On 11/2/2023 at 6:15 PM, zadok said:

...u previously mentioned the show promoters needed the admission fees to cover their expenses n yet did little to nothing to accommodate the fee paying collectors or anything to encourage them to attend in the future??...not a good business model....

It would seem from all Kurt has admitted that this endeavor was designed to gouge the public and laugh all the way to the bank.   What is laughable is that Kurt had the gall to suggest that the entry fee was "necessary".

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:15 PM, zadok said:

...u previously mentioned the show promoters needed the admission fees to cover their expenses n yet did little to nothing to accommodate the fee paying collectors or anything to encourage them to attend in the future??...not a good business model....

The Staten Island Ferry is FREE. The Brooklyn Bridge is FREE. Whole toll plazas have been eliminated resulting in less accidents due to miscalculated decelerations and unnecessary crowding improving rapid transit. FREE is the way of the future. Wars abroad? No problem. We throw trillions to have others resolve them.  There are TPGSs that hold events FREE for members. If my wife and I ride the subway to and fro, that's over $10. right there. Is anyone aware it costs over $30. to ascend to the top of One World Trade, just to take in the sights from the observatory?

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:19 PM, Coinbuf said:

It would seem from all Kurt has admitted that this endeavor was designed to gouge the public and laugh all the way to the bank.   What is laughable is that Kurt had the gall to suggest that the entry fee was "necessary".

I believe they LOST MONEY. Nothing official, I just got that sense. Costs were just too high.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:19 PM, Henri Charriere said:

The Staten Island Ferry is FREE. The Brooklyn Bridge is FREE. Whole toll plazas have been eliminated resulting in less accidents due to miscalculated decelerations and unnecessary crowding improving rapid transit. FREE is the way of the future. Wars abroad? No problem. We throw trillions to have others resolve them.  There are TPGSs that hold events FREE for members. If my wife and I ride the subway to and fro, that's over $10. right there. Is anyone aware it costs over $30. to ascend to the top of One World Trade, just to take in the sights from the observatory?

Nothing is EVER FREE. Everything has a cost. If it LOOKS free, your cost is being picked up by somebody else.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:04 AM, zadok said:

....another word we probably should attempt to define is "numismatist"...but one word at a time....

That's easy.  By general assent, I am a numismatist.  I set the industry standard. Any questions? One at a time, please.

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:29 PM, Henri Charriere said:

That's easy.  By general assent, I am a numismatist.  I set the industry standard. Any questions? One at a time, please.

Yes, you are. You both "study" and "own" the objects of your desire. Roger does secondary, not original, research. The original research was done by the people who wrote the documents he scans into his databases. I, on the other hand, go places, experience things, and report on them. I hold coins in my hand. I interview and attend talks with industry leaders. I travel internationally to better understand this field. Tell me - who's the researcher?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahh, but it WAS necessary at Nashville. Given the costs, there was NO WAY ON EARTH the IMEX show would not bleed red ink without an admission charge. It's GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL. ANA has done it for well over a decade. And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

The overhead for NYC has to be much more than Nashville.  I wonder how much they each took in $$$-wise.

[VKurtB]

On 11/3/2023 at 1:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The overhead for NYC has to be much more than Nashville.  I wonder how much they each took in $$$-wise.

The costs at Nashville are HIGHER than NYC, and it ain’t even close. Hotel rooms are higher in Nashville, meals were higher, outside the Music City Center’s concessions, which were reasonable, and even PARKING is higher in Nashville.

[zadok]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:29 PM, Henri Charriere said:

That's easy.  By general assent, I am a numismatist.  I set the industry standard. Any questions? One at a time, please.

...thats open to debate n only by the thinnest of margins...but ill grant u the benefit of the doubt...chicken farmer came to mind but i see no hens....

[zadok]

On 11/3/2023 at 7:51 AM, VKurtB said:

The costs at Nashville are HIGHER than NYC, and it ain’t even close. Hotel rooms are higher in Nashville, meals were higher, outside the Music City Center’s concessions, which were reasonable, and even PARKING is higher in Nashville.

...yep i can attest to that my out of pocket expenses exceeded $2K...most expensive show ive done...e.g. rooms triple the baltimore show, food double to triple, parking double...NYC, they would have to pay me to go back to shows there, total cesspool...chi town just bearable but at least affordable, central states ditto...one could go to the show in berlin for what nashville cost....

[Henri Charriere]

Maybe they ought to try Las Vegas.  Have any coin shows ever been held there lately?

[zadok]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:19 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Maybe they ought to try Las Vegas.  Have any coin shows ever been held there lately?

...shows have to be in tax friendly environs....

[VKurtB]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:09 AM, zadok said:

...yep i can attest to that my out of pocket expenses exceeded $2K...most expensive show ive done...e.g. rooms triple the baltimore show, food double to triple, parking double...NYC, they would have to pay me to go back to shows there, total cesspool...chi town just bearable but at least affordable, central states ditto...one could go to the show in berlin for what nashville cost....

I’m the guy doing both Nashville AND Berlin.

[VKurtB]

If I were a betting man, and I’m not, I would guess that any IMEX 2.0 show would be northeast of downtown Nashville out near the “new” Opry, or even Hendersonville. There’s a suweeet venue or two out there without the ultra-high costs, and other difficulties, like a marathon race or a Queen concert, to contend with. If Steve and Gary see that the way I do, I would expect the entry fee may go bye-bye. Closer to the airport, too.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Just Bob]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes, you are. You both "study" and "own" the objects of your desire. 

If that is the definition of numismatist, I fear we have set the bar way too low.

I have a fairly extensive, well-rounded numismatic book collection, which I read and consult frequently. I also do a good bit of reading online, as well as watching videos of lectures and  presentations. I'm on the couch every night with my laptop and pen & notepad, making notes and recording auction results of the tokens that I collect, and other coins that I am interested in. However, in no way do I consider myself a true numismatist. I am just a guy who likes coins and tokens. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:20 AM, Just Bob said:

If that is the definition of numismatist, I fear we have set the bar way too low.

I have a fairly extensive, well-rounded numismatic book collection, which I read and consult frequently. I also do a good bit of reading online, as well as watching videos of lectures and  presentations. I'm on the couch every night with my laptop and pen & notepad, making notes and recording auction results of the tokens that I collect, and other coins that I am interested in. However, in no way do I consider myself a true numismatist. I am just a guy who likes coins and tokens. 

The bar IS low. The thing is - Roger fails to clear it. Oh, he had a once glorious past as a numismatist; he jus' ain't one no mo'. Just like Troy Aikman ain't a QB any more.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:42 AM, zadok said:

...shows have to be in tax friendly environs....

Someone tell NYIMC show !! 

[VKurtB]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Someone tell NYIMC show !! 

Many dealers evade a sales tax nexus at NYINC by being foreign dealers. No U.S. national shows will locate in a place that charges sales tax on coins. It’s a near-universal thing. Baltimore Whitman has dealers SHARING tables specifically to avoid having enough days in Maryland under their name to establish a sales tax nexus. I get weirded out by folks here who don’t understand the “inside baseball” factors about shows. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[Zebo]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:50 PM, VKurtB said:

Many dealers evade a sales tax nexus at NYINC by being foreign dealers. No U.S. national shows will locate in a place that charges sales tax on coins. It’s a near-universal thing. Baltimore Whitman has dealers SHARING tables specifically to avoid having enough days in Maryland under their name to establish a sales tax nexus. I get weirded out by folks here who don’t understand the “inside baseball” factors about shows. 

So where in your mind would you believe alternative show locations might be possible to avoid tax and union issues? For ANA, Whitman or other large show? 
 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:27 AM, Zebo said:

So where in your mind would you believe alternative show locations might be possible to avoid tax and union issues? For ANA, Whitman or other large show? 
 

How 'bout Acapulco -- after it's all fixed up, of course.

[zadok]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:27 AM, Zebo said:

So where in your mind would you believe alternative show locations might be possible to avoid tax and union issues? For ANA, Whitman or other large show? 
 

...basically just look at the locations currently being used for the ANA, Long Beach, Central States, FUN shows n u can tell the most favorable locations, there r a few other cities n states but in several instances the facilities, accommodations n travel restrictions dont lend themselves to a large convention....