Numismatist - Isabella quarter restrikes - Die use discovered. 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:20 PM, J P M said:

I was searching the web and came up with a link to Rogers story if you have not seen it yet.

https://www.northwestcoinclub.com/uploads/1/1/4/3/114393559/isabella_quarter_restrikes_-_numismatist_versiion.pdf#:~:text=n direct terms%2C the Philadelphia Mint was ordered,as it is of mis- communication and confusion.

Very thoughtful of you to provide a link... now if we can only get the one-time-only consent of the gentleman whose butt (his word) resides in the heart of dixie to enable me to read it with my 30-power lense...

Just kidding!  🤣

[leeg]

SUPER article for all us early commemorative coin collectors!

[GoldFinger1969]

Good read...though to be honest, I thought it was on another topic. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Good read...though to be honest, I thought it was on another topic. 

...so did it make u want to run out n buy isabellas or other commemoratives?...or just some historical/statistical info to file away?...enhancement to the hobby?...or mostly compartmental archival  trivia?...

[RWB]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:46 PM, zadok said:

...so did it make u want to run out n buy isabellas or other commemoratives?...or just some historical/statistical info to file away?...enhancement to the hobby?...or mostly compartmental archival  trivia?...

...or all of the above depending on your personal interests.

[Henri Charriere]

I suppose I could be hectored into becoming a myrmidon, but my conscience will not permit it.  And as shameful and selfish as it may seem, given a choice between being appalled by the antics of passing trolls or being enthralled by the OP's targeted approach to research as set forth in elegant direct prose, I would unhesitatingly choose the latter, but to each his own.

[RWB]

The following question was asked on another message board. Here's the reply.

"retirednow Posts: 309 ✭✭✭✭

June 6, 2023 7:57AM

What interest me was not just the article ... but how and when does Roger come up with research ideas. Does he just wake up one morning thinking about when and if Isabella Quarters were struck in 1896?

I look for forward to his future book on re-strikes et al ... I have enjoyed reading several of his other books and articles.

 

A tenant of research - any kind - is "focus on the subject, but watch for other things." The necessary documents and information were in a group of US Mint document I was examining. Although these restrikes fit right into the subject of a book I'm working on, I was not looking for this -- and to find this really "odd ball" circumstance was a combination of paying attention to the documents and good luck. That is how I used this example in a presentation to the Northwest Coin Club back in May. (The book on restrike patterns, circulation coins, etc. is surprisingly complicated so it will not be "out" for quite a while.)

As for how I select subjects for articles, etc., it's mostly a matter of something unusual, interesting, or a new understanding of an old story. The latter might be well illustrated by the Coin World article on the making of late-date proof Trade dollars -- or indeed by many of my books. There are also limitations -- some subject seem to lack enough factual data to draw the pieces together, or to reach a useful conclusion. I also adopt topics that collectors mention. These are things that might seem commonplace and well known, but where American numismatics has either lost, misplaced, or "invented" information and its sources. (This "source" problem is also why I insist on clear identification of sources and good documentation.)

As Yogi Berra once noted, "You can see a lot just by looking." (or something like that).

 

[VKurtB]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:02 PM, RWB said:

The following question was asked on another message board. Here's the reply.

"retirednow Posts: 309 ✭✭✭✭

 

June 6, 2023 7:57AM

 

What interest me was not just the article ... but how and when does Roger come up with research ideas. Does he just wake up one morning thinking about when and if Isabella Quarters were struck in 1896?

 

I look for forward to his future book on re-strikes et al ... I have enjoyed reading several of his other books and articles.

 

 

A tenant of research - any kind - is "focus on the subject, but watch for other things." The necessary documents and information were in a group of US Mint document I was examining. Although these restrikes fit right into the subject of a book I'm working on, I was not looking for this -- and to find this really "odd ball" circumstance was a combination of paying attention to the documents and good luck. That is how I used this example in a presentation to the Northwest Coin Club back in May. (The book on restrike patterns, circulation coins, etc. is surprisingly complicated so it will not be "out" for quite a while.)

As for how I select subjects for articles, etc., it's mostly a matter of something unusual, interesting, or a new understanding of an old story. The latter might be well illustrated by the Coin World article on the making of late-date proof Trade dollars -- or indeed by many of my books. There are also limitations -- some subject seem to lack enough factual data to draw the pieces together, or to reach a useful conclusion. I also adopt topics that collectors mention. These are things that might seem commonplace and well known, but where American numismatics has either lost, misplaced, or "invented" information and its sources. (This "source" problem is also why I insist on clear identification of sources and good documentation.)

As Yogi Berra once noted, "You can see a lot just by looking." (or something like that).

 

Roger, you have just described the process I use for a new competitive exhibit. I read a lot of stuff and let what hits me randomly, do so. I then search not an archive, but my actual files of coins themselves to determine what other pieces I may need to complete the exhibit.

Edited June 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[RWB]

The number of Isabella quarter dies made and destroyed in 1893 and 1896 has been discovered. The short item will be in my CoinWeek column very soon.

[ldhair]

As a collector, I enjoy and respect the work of someone that can do the research and bring out new information. Finding information that has been lost for a hundred years is pretty cool. 

[leeg]

On 6/9/2023 at 10:53 AM, RWB said:

The number of Isabella quarter dies made and destroyed in 1893 and 1896 has been discovered. The short item will be in my CoinWeek column very soon.

Please let us know when this article is available.  Much thanks!

[VKurtB]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:53 AM, RWB said:

The number of Isabella quarter dies made and destroyed in 1893 and 1896 has been discovered. The short item will be in my CoinWeek column very soon.

SUPERB! But are they identifiable by those dies? I’ll say in advance that if they remain unidentifiable, to me, it remains a non-story. 

[RWB]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:35 PM, leeg said:

Please let us know when this article is available.  Much thanks!

Lee,

It should be in my next CoinWeek column.

[RWB]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:13 PM, VKurtB said:

SUPERB! But are they identifiable by those dies? I’ll say in advance that if they remain unidentifiable, to me, it remains a non-story. 

That is left to others. Evidently no one has looked since 1893.

Edited June 11, 2023 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:42 PM, RWB said:

That is left to others. Evidently no one has looked since 1893.

But, but... maybe they looked and were unable to find anything.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/10/2023 at 8:42 PM, RWB said:

That is left to others. Evidently no one has looked since 1893.

Obviously the COINS from each still exist. What is normally done with the dies? What about in that era? Are things like that archived somewhere?

[RWB]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:48 PM, Henri Charriere said:

But, but... maybe they looked and were unable to find anything.  

Nope. The entire incident was completely unknown outside of the US Mint document files, and possibly contemporary coin dealers -- who said nothing (or knew nothing).

[RWB]

Maybe Mrs. Bertha Palmer mentioned the incident in her diary? Where is that....? At tea with insiders to the Board of Lady Managers....?

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2023 at 4:50 PM, RWB said:

Maybe Mrs. Bertha Palmer mentioned the incident in her diary? Where is that....? At tea with insiders to the Board of Lady Managers....?

I used to own one of Bertha’s big drivers, back before my range of motion went to heck and I had to give up golf other than par 3 stuff. Bleeding strokes can cause havoc with range of motion. 

[RWB]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:16 PM, VKurtB said:

I used to own one of Bertha’s big drivers, back before my range of motion went to heck and I had to give up golf other than par 3 stuff. Bleeding strokes can cause havoc with range of motion. 

You must have got hold of the Wagnerian "Big Bertha" version.

[VKurtB]

On 6/14/2023 at 11:59 AM, RWB said:

You must have got hold of the Wagnerian "Big Bertha" version.

Neither the Minenwerfer-Gerät, nor the Texas Longhorns’ bass drum, but the Callaway version. 

[RWB]

To identify originals and restrikes, we first need clear die differences so that others can examine their coins.

Once that has had time to identify 2 or more dies, and we have rough proportions, we can then look for coins whose provenance goes back to the World's Fair or anytime between 1893 and 1896.

With multiple pieces identified, we then determine if there were 1 or 2 dies in use.

Given the small mintage, this activity should resolve itself in a few weeks or months. Then, any coin from a different die pair should be a restrike.

The TPG's should sponsor this examination since they are the ones who will profit from increased re-grading and attribution fees.

[I can do this from coins and auction records, but I would charge a TPG for my time. it's much better for collectors to do this.]

[VKurtB]

On 6/14/2023 at 5:29 PM, RWB said:

To identify originals and restrikes, we first need clear die differences so that others can examine their coins.

Once that has had time to identify 2 or more dies, and we have rough proportions, we can then look for coins whose provenance goes back to the World's Fair or anytime between 1893 and 1896.

With multiple pieces identified, we then determine if there were 1 or 2 dies in use.

Given the small mintage, this activity should resolve itself in a few weeks or months. Then, any coin from a different die pair should be a restrike.

The TPG's should sponsor this examination since they are the ones who will profit from increased re-grading and attribution fees.

[I can do this from coins and auction records, but I would charge a TPG for my time. it's much better for collectors to do this.]

How about hubs? Are they retained somewhere usually? Could there have been a 1896 rehub?

[zadok]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:29 PM, RWB said:

To identify originals and restrikes, we first need clear die differences so that others can examine their coins.

Once that has had time to identify 2 or more dies, and we have rough proportions, we can then look for coins whose provenance goes back to the World's Fair or anytime between 1893 and 1896.

With multiple pieces identified, we then determine if there were 1 or 2 dies in use.

Given the small mintage, this activity should resolve itself in a few weeks or months. Then, any coin from a different die pair should be a restrike.

The TPG's should sponsor this examination since they are the ones who will profit from increased re-grading and attribution fees.

[I can do this from coins and auction records, but I would charge a TPG for my time. it's much better for collectors to do this.]

...actually any coin from any of the die pairs could be restrikes unless their pedigree is documented as to time of issuance...as far as the tpgs sponsoring this endeavor, i doubt the small number of coins involved n even smaller number of interested parties interested would cause a ripple on their financial pond....

[RWB]

Provenance is mentioned in the second line.

[VKurtB]

I made Rick Montgomery aware of Roger’s Isabella restrikes article. He is going to put all NGC graders on a quest to look for die markers for restrikes. 

[Henri Charriere]

Blast from the Past!

🐓  :  Big Bertha!???

Q.A.:  I have no idea what those gentlemen were talking about.

🐓  :  That can mean only one thing... you're not as old as you thought you were!

🤣