Congressman calls out USTreasury on USMint Production 1 1

[Mr.Bill347]

https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2022/08/26/congressman-criticizes-us-mints-management-of-silver-american-eagle-program-demands-answers-002581?utm_source=220826-MMX-PN&keycode=220826-MMX-PN&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=content&social=true

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:39 AM, Mr.Bill347 said:

https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2022/08/26/congressman-criticizes-us-mints-management-of-silver-american-eagle-program-demands-answers-002581?utm_source=220826-MMX-PN&keycode=220826-MMX-PN&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=content&social=true

Sorry, but the Honorable Gentleman needs to blame his Most Honorable colleagues, plus those at the other end of the Capitol, for the sheer madness of the ASE production kerfuffle. The Mint is utterly blameless. The fault, dear friends, lies in our legislation, not our bureau management. The silver procurement rules are STATUTORY (and really REALLY DUMB!)

[Mr.Bill347]

Excellent point there VkurtB! Still a cluster-****

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 3:07 PM, VKurtB said:

Sorry, but the Honorable Gentleman needs to blame his Most Honorable colleagues, plus those at the other end of the Capitol, for the sheer madness of the ASE production kerfuffle. The Mint is utterly blameless. The fault, dear friends, lies in our legislation, not our bureau management. The silver procurement rules are STATUTORY (and really REALLY DUMB!)

I agree the statutory requirements for the ASE production are ridiculous, and I don't fault the US Mint for ignoring that. However, the US Mint is not completely blameless in not meeting those requirements (however ridiculous) as well as making bonehead decisions to cancel entire runs that are very popular like the Morgans.  At the same time, they are maintaining or not reducing other higher-margin silver programs, which do not have statutory production requirements or are not as popular.  And then there are the serious quality issues with some of their products lately, discussed in multiple recent threads, which lands squarely on their lap.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

I agree the statutory requirements for the ASE production are ridiculous, and I don't fault the US Mint for ignoring that. However, the US Mint is not completely blameless in not meeting those requirements (however ridiculous) as well as making bonehead decisions to cancel entire runs that are very popular like the Morgans.  At the same time, they are maintaining or not reducing other higher-margin silver programs, which do not have statutory production requirements or are not as popular.  And then there are the serious quality issues with some of their products lately, discussed in multiple recent threads, which lands squarely on their lap.

The price that the Mint is allowed to pay for blanks is statutorily set at BELOW the current market price. That can’t be fixed. 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:42 PM, VKurtB said:

The price that the Mint is allowed to pay for blanks is statutorily set at BELOW the current market price. That can’t be fixed. 

Okay so given a fixed amount of silver. and therefore blanks they can order, you simply reduce the number of other commemorative or special silver coins and medals that are not mandated like the ASE and are less popular, and increase production of ASEs as mandated and also produce the more popular Morgans.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. 😉

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:17 PM, EagleRJO said:

Okay so given a fixed amount of silver. and therefore blanks they can order, you simply reduce the number of other commemorative or special silver coins and medals that are not mandated like the ASE and are less popular, and increase production of ASEs as mandated and also produce the more popular Morgans.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. 😉

The maximum mintage of ALL commemoratives is also set by the Congress. 

[EagleRJO]

Right, there is no minimum, so you reduce those.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:04 PM, EagleRJO said:

Right, there is no minimum, so you reduce those.

They need to plan for the “base” demand, which is still fairly decent for commemorative silver dollars. The $5 gold and clad halves are lagging. 

[EagleRJO]

Great, so they should have planned it out better for a lower base of less desireable items, instead of putting the janitor in charge of production scheduling and planchet ordering, which resulted in failing to meet statutory ASE production and complete cancelation of the popular Morgans.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:40 PM, EagleRJO said:

Great, so they should have planned it out better for a lower base of less desireable items, instead of putting the janitor in charge of production scheduling and planchet ordering, which resulted in failing to meet statutory ASE production and complete cancelation of the popular Morgans.

Umm, popular with whom, exactly? In my opinion, the Morgan and Peace products should be scrapped. The quality is abysmal, and absent the 100 year anniversary angle, have exactly no reason to exist. That said, I have subscribed for exactly ONE 2023 offering, the uncirculated 2023 Peace dollar, full stop. The rest hold no interest for me. What does a 2023 Morgan dollar even signify? It’s a gimmick.

It’s the “wrong” weight (by a little), the wrong fineness (by a lot), and a poor imitation of the original design. Heck, Dan Carr did a more “true” rendition of a “real” Morgan dollar than the United States Mint has done in 2021. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by VKurtB

[Mr.Bill347]

I agree. I got lucky on my 2021 Morgan it graded an MS69 but I’m a firm believer that MS69 today is not the same as an ms69 20 years ago.

as far bad that coin is concerned, I wouldn’t call it special, under the microscope it had pretty lumpy fields and uncrisp devices. You be the judge 

side by side

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:59 PM, VKurtB said:

Umm, popular with whom, exactly? ... The quality is abysmal, and absent the 100 year anniversary angle, have exactly no reason to exist.

Popular with collectors in general from what I have read and a mint supervisor told me ("inundated with complaints" paraphrasing), and agreed with a needed improvement in quality.

On 8/26/2022 at 9:59 PM, VKurtB said:

 Heck, Dan Carr did a more “true” rendition of a “real” Morgan dollar than the United States Mint has done in 2021. 

You might be right there. 😉

[VKurtB]

I don’t have mine graded, as in ever. I simply believe ALL modern non-circulating legal tender coins are a waste of time and treasure to have graded. 

[Mr.Bill347]

May be true V, but if I ever sell them it’s important 

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:24 PM, EagleRJO said:

Popular with collectors in general from what I have read and a mint supervisor told me ("inundated with complaints" paraphrasing), and agreed with a needed improvement in quality.

You might be right there. 😉

If they are so popular, why am I STILL seeing them hawked in  TV ads? Yes, they were hoarded to death by wholesalers trying to turn a quick buck, which is probably the best reason to avoid them. 175,000 is NOT a low mintage. The unsold inventory in dealers’ cases is HUGE. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:27 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

May be true V, but if I ever sell them it’s important 

Why? Unless they’re 70’s it’s a loss. 

[Mr.Bill347]

To further qualify what VKurtB is saying. The 21 CC should be worth more than it is due to the extremely limited 8 minute sale. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:31 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

To further qualify what VKurtB is saying. The 21 CC should be worth more than it is due to the extremely limited 8 minute sale. 

But they are out there, in dealers’ cases, and they’re NOT being sold at current asking prices. 

[Mr.Bill347]

That’s for sure. All the dealers got the pre releases and over bought. Us average guys had a very difficult 8 minutes of frenzy and for what?

 

[EagleRJO]

The 1921 Morgans are also notoriously poorly struck coins, just like the 2021 Morgans (and some early date Philly Morgans). I would be willing to bet the family ranch VKurtB is talking about poor quality compaired to one's produced up to the turn of the century.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

The 1921 Morgans are also notoriously poorly struck coins, just like the 2021 Morgans (and some early date Philly Morgans). I would be willing to bet the family ranch VKurtB is talking about poor quality compaired to one's produced up to the turn of the century.

Correctomundo you are. The 1921’s were no match for especially the 00-04 issues. Some 1904-O’s will burn spots in your retinas. 

[Mr.Bill347]

Like this one?

[Mr.Bill347]

Lively discussion guys. I have completed my graded Morgan’s. I have disenrolled from future releases of Eagle,Morgan, Peace. I did get a 2022 Eagle proof, but it won’t be graded.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:42 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Like this one?

Zackly! And PL’s and even DMPL’s abound (in relative terms) among 1904-O dollars. That is a purdy MS63, fo’ sho’. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

I chose to subscribe for the 2023(P) Peace dollar in uncirculated because it has a 100 year counterpart. 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:39 PM, VKurtB said:

Correctomundo you are. The 1921’s were no match for especially the 00-04 issues. Some 1904-O’s will burn spots in your retinas. 

I just recently added a 1903-O and 1904-O both in BU grade to the collection, and my eyes still have not recovered. Especially when not viewed looking through a plastic slab coffin.  😉

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:29 PM, VKurtB said:

175,000 is NOT a low mintage. The unsold inventory in dealers’ cases is HUGE. 

I am not saying they needed to produce more 2021 Morgans, and maybe even striking like 100k would be enough. But  ZERO is a long way from that, maybe even a slightly lower number and improve the quality which should be done anyway.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:13 PM, EagleRJO said:

I am not saying they needed to produce more 2021 Morgans, and maybe even striking like 100k would be enough. But  ZERO is a long way from that, maybe even a slightly lower number and improve the quality which should be done anyway.

I wonder if the Mint even retains the ability to meaningfully improve the quality. The results of the 2016 gold tribute coins argues that they might not. So much has “gone digital” and much in the same way vinyl sound recordings are more rich and subtle, and a good Kodachrome slide puts even a 48 megapixel digipic to shame, digitization is NOT a pure good. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

I actually think the Mint did a good job of reproducing the obverse design from the 1-oz Saint double eagles and improving the strike quality for the production of modern 1-oz gold coins.

[See attached, but that really doesn't do them justice like having those coins in your hand.]

Edited August 27, 2022 by EagleRJO