Tiberius tribute penny - advice 0

[antsulp]

Hi guys, posted this is the Newbie forum and didn’t get any responses. I just joined so please bear with me. If this should go in another forum just let me know. 
 

I have a few ancient coins that were included with a collection that I inherited from my father with a lot of nice US coins. None of the ancients are graded or encapsulated and I want to see if it is worth it. I was going to send this tribute penny in as sort of a test run and have it graded, conservation done, and encapsulated. But I want to make sure it’s worth it. Don’t know too much about these ancient coins, but I’ve started reading and I’m slowly learning. Do u guys think this coin is worth the cost of sending in?  Thanks in advance for any advice or insight.  

[Just Bob]

I am having a hard time with this one - trying to decide if I think it is real or not. I am not doubting you or your father's ability to detect a fake coin; it is just that this is a really popular type, due to the Bible connection, and is definitely ripe for fakers to exploit. I think, if it were mine, I would have it authenticated somewhere - either by sending it to NGC, or by taking it to an Ancients expert. That is, if some of the really knowledgeable Ancient folks on here don't give you an answer one way or the other.

[antsulp]

Thank you for the quick reply! I have my fathers coins in a safe and just started going thru them over the past few days. I just found this to go along with the tribute penny. It was upside down in a little box with the rest of his ancients. I'm pretty sure it's a legit coin because my dad was a coin collector pretty much his entire life and also a senior scientist for a pharmaceutical company. He was VERY smart and very anal with everything he did. He had a lab in his basement and would frequently look at coins under powerful microscopes, do research, take photos, etc. I would be shocked if he was duped with a fake coin. But that being said I really have no clue. I remember him buying some ancient coins about 10 years ago, but don't know if these are the ones he bought. Any help would be appreciated. 

[antsulp]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I am having a hard time with this one - trying to decide if I think it is real or not. I am not doubting you or your father's ability to detect a fake coin; it is just that this is a really popular type, due to the Bible connection, and is definitely ripe for fakers to exploit. I think, if it were mine, I would have it authenticated somewhere - either by sending it to NGC, or by taking it to an Ancients expert. That is, if some of the really knowledgeable Ancient folks on here don't give you an answer one way or the other.

Sorry, wanted to quote your post in my above reply. 

[JKK]

I looked and the reason you got no replies over there is because you chose a thread title that might have seemed perfectly descriptive to you but told the potential responder nothing about what kind of coin it was, so it went completely under my "do I give a *spoon*" radar. Ancients are my thing, but I ignore all thread titles about stuff like submission forms and methods, just as I ignore nearly all the "I found a modern penny in the parking lot, what kind of mint error is this" and "is this a small date?" stuff. It was the right forum, though. No problem; so is this.

Anyway, here we are. The lighting makes it hard to evaluate authenticity, but it looks more authentic than many of the ancients people post here. No offense intended and nothing personal when I say that the more someone talks about the numismatic greatness of the person who bequeathed it, the less faith I have in the presented conclusions because my experience is that everyone thinks Dad or Bampaw was the world's greatest collector and knew all things about coins--and then it very often turns out he bought fakes for triple what a legit coin should have cost. (And lest you think I'm being gratuitous, my own father-in-law was one of these.) So that statement is a red flag, though you do not intend it as such. How's that for a hell of a note?

Seaby is a very legit name in ancients. They are publishers of some key numismatic references and as a rule, if they think it's real, I think it's real. Of course, anyone could have printed up that flip insert, if that's what the card is. We don't get the weight and average diameter, so we have nothing to work with there. If authentic, this would be Sear 1763 (this is a catalog attribution; it tells people "it's positively IDed as one of these"), which same listing in Sear contains a note to the effect that Bob mentioned. He's far too polite to say it this way, but I'm not: anything that smells Biblical turns out fakers in mass because the crooks (who love to pose as Brethren In Jesus) know they are often dealing with dumb suckers. In VF, in whatever year of the 1980s or 1990s my Sear was published, they booked this for US$280. I didn't find any recent sales on Ebenezer, but knowing that it is RCV 567 and Sear 1763, and I believe RIC 26, will help you enormously in searching auction histories, which is your next stop to get an idea of current value. What it's worth is what it hammers for. Even though I'm missing some of the key information, I'd say you have about a 75% probability it's real because it contains some characteristics of real ones, and is missing some characteristics of fakes. Here's a page where someone's selling some of them.

I think you could do worse than sending it in.

Edited May 10, 2020 by JKK

[antsulp]

1 hour ago, JKK said:

I looked and the reason you got no replies over there is because you chose a thread title that might have seemed perfectly descriptive to you but told the potential responder nothing about what kind of coin it was, so it went completely under my "do I give a *spoon*" radar. Ancients are my thing, but I ignore all thread titles about stuff like submission forms and methods, just as I ignore nearly all the "I found a modern penny in the parking lot, what kind of mint error is this" and "is this a small date?" stuff. It was the right forum, though. No problem; so is this.

Anyway, here we are. The lighting makes it hard to evaluate authenticity, but it looks more authentic than many of the ancients people post here. No offense intended and nothing personal when I say that the more someone talks about the numismatic greatness of the person who bequeathed it, the less faith I have in the presented conclusions because my experience is that everyone thinks Dad or Bampaw was the world's greatest collector and knew all things about coins--and then it very often turns out he bought fakes for triple what a legit coin should have cost. (And lest you think I'm being gratuitous, my own father-in-law was one of these.) So that statement is a red flag, though you do not intend it as such. How's that for a hell of a note?

Seaby is a very legit name in ancients. They are publishers of some key numismatic references and as a rule, if they think it's real, I think it's real. Of course, anyone could have printed up that flip insert, if that's what the card is. We don't get the weight and average diameter, so we have nothing to work with there. If authentic, this would be Sear 1763 (this is a catalog attribution; it tells people "it's positively IDed as one of these"), which same listing in Sear contains a note to the effect that Bob mentioned. He's far too polite to say it this way, but I'm not: anything that smells Biblical turns out fakers in mass because the crooks (who love to pose as Brethren In Jesus) know they are often dealing with dumb suckers. In VF, in whatever year of the 1980s or 1990s my Sear was published, they booked this for US$280. I didn't find any recent sales on Ebenezer, but knowing that it is RCV 567 and Sear 1763, and I believe RIC 26, will help you enormously in searching auction histories, which is your next stop to get an idea of current value. What it's worth is what it hammers for. Even though I'm missing some of the key information, I'd say you have about a 75% probability it's real because it contains some characteristics of real ones, and is missing some characteristics of fakes. Here's a page where someone's selling some of them.

I think you could do worse than sending it in.

Thanks for taking the time to send that reply! Very informative and I appreciate the honesty. Definitely not trying to throw up red flags bragging about my dad's skills. Just that I had a ton of respect for him for the research he did, and knowledge he had. But I get that it's meaningless to you or any knowledgeable collector. And yes, the insert in the flip could have been easily created. Which is one of the reason I want to send it in. Oh, and written small on the back is "3.7555g" if that helps. I think i'm going to take my chances and send it in. And I know you said you don't like submission posts and the like, but I'm gonna try to ask you anyway...Will it benefit the coin to have "standard conservation" done (assuming it's real)? It's 4% of FMV (or $25/min) which leads me to my next question... If i enter the "declared value" incorrectly will they just adjust it up or down? I see variations of this coin going anywhere from $100-$1000 and I'm not an expert. So if I put $300 as the DV and it winds up being worth $150, will they adjust the conservation price accordingly? Basically do they expect the submitter to know the value of the coin before sending it? 

I have a few more ancient coins I'd like you take a look at if you're interested in seeing them. And thank you again for all of your insight. 

Anthony 

[JKK]

1 minute ago, antsulp said:

Thanks for taking the time to send that reply! Very informative and I appreciate the honesty. Definitely not trying to throw up red flags bragging about my dad's skills. Just that I had a ton of respect for him for the research he did, and knowledge he had. But I get that it's meaningless to you or any knowledgeable collector. And yes, the insert in the flip could have been easily created. Which is one of the reason I want to send it in. Oh, and written small on the back is "3.7555g" if that helps. I think i'm going to take my chances and send it in. And I know you said you don't like submission posts and the like, but I'm gonna try to ask you anyway...Will it benefit the coin to have "standard conservation" done (assuming it's real)? It's 4% of FMV (or $25/min) which leads me to my next question... If i enter the "declared value" incorrectly will they just adjust it up or down? I see variations of this coin going anywhere from $100-$1000 and I'm not an expert. So if I put $300 as the DV and it winds up being worth $150, will they adjust the conservation price accordingly? Basically do they expect the submitter to know the value of the coin before sending it? 

I have a few more ancient coins I'd like you take a look at if you're interested in seeing them. And thank you again for all of your insight. 

Anthony 

We all hopefully respect our numismatic ancestors. I don't expect new arrivals to realize just how overrated the state of ancestral numismatics are. It just is. I helped a lady get rid of her dad's collection of gold coins, for which he probably paid $350K. She thought he was a Major Expert. When the two counterfeits were subtracted, the total gross hammer was about $150K. My wife's boss's husband had passed away, and he went into *spoon*loads of debt to buy world coins. Had a gorgeous collection in my view, including some very pretty ancients. I estimated that a dealer might give her $1600 for them. You can see where breaking the news of "Hubby/Uncan Sherry/Bampaw/Dad didn't know what he was doing" would get old, because no one wants to tell people that. One wants to gush, be excited, get psyched, fire up cigars and drink single-malt.

That's probably the weight, yeah--although I would weigh it myself rather than take anyone's word.

It's not that I don't like submission posts. I think they are fantastic, topical, and necessary, and I also think that I have no useful contributions to make about submissions. I was trying to help you understand how to get more attention. I'll leave those questions for someone who either works for NGC or who has ever actually sent a coin in for slabbing, rather than inflict an ignorant answer on you. And believe me, all my answers about slabbing would be ignorant.

I love looking at ancient coins, which is why I spent an amount of money that would shock you on buying the necessary references. Kindly: one coin per thread, describe the coin as best you know in the thread title, sharp obverse and reverse pics with good cropping, a photo of any insert or label you have (just as you did with this one), weight in g, average diameter in mm. Try for lighting as faithful as possible. I don't claim to be an expert, but I know where to find the experts if I get stuck.

[Conder101]

One thing to remembers, you can send it in, and they will grade it, they will slab it, they may even identify it correctly, but they don't guarantee authenticity.  Ancients are not covered under their grading and authenticy guarantee.