Should a coin receive a "Cameo" designation if the contrast is diminished?

[Insider]

Ditto, and we can add to that example (cameos) all the over graded and problem coins that get straight graded that I'm sure we both have seen. Graders and auction cataloger's are not perfect but they do a good job all things considered.

[coinman_23885]

Hi Insider.

I can post the larger image for you if you wish.

 

Thanks, I did not bother to take one!

 

Mark is correct. A coin cannot make CAM if any part of the FROST on the relief is weak or not present. I thought my example would be clear. I'll continue to hold my opinion based on the deeply toned CAMEO proofs slabbed by PCGS that have FULL FROST on both sides and deep attractive toning as my example.

 

One trouble I have found with coin forums and photos. Either the photo is not magnified enough to authenticate a coin or a coin has an obverse strike thru in one little area of interest and the guys want to see the coin's reverse WHICH MAKES NO SENSE. The other problem is some try to make a simple question complicated by adding all kinds of "what if's."

 

Thankfully, that was not the case in this thread. Thanks to all for your comments!

 

Actually, I have seen a number of coins designated "Cameo" by the major grading services in instances where one or more areas of frost were weak. Like most things in numismatics, there is subjectivity and inconsistency in awarding such designations.

 

+1 It also contributes to the enormous variation in pricing for the older/rarer issues. Cameo Mercury Dimes, for instance, are all over the place in price.

[Insider]

Sounds like your TPG grader buddy reflects the PCGS view. Grading companies do vary slightly on this cameo game. Not so much for the amount of contrast required but for instance PCGS never graded coppers as cameo unless they are full red. So if you see a PCGS copper cameo that's not full red, then it probably turned dark in the holder. NGC does grade copper cameos in RB and I own a beautiful '51 Lincoln that's RB Cameo. Also moderns are assumed cameo due to die prep, chrome plating and other improvements. All are cameo after about 1978. Those early Ikes are coined from dies prepared like means used from 1950 and even earlier. They are very beautiful coins even though I don't consider the design very appealing.

 

If we were discussing toned copper, then I would agree that PCGS takes it too far when it will only slab (supposedly) "red" coins as cameos. There are a number of coins that are RB or possibly even BN where there is sufficient contrast and depth of mirroring to make a determination. NGC will slab any coin as a cameo that warrants it. The fact that NGC refused is telling. I would actually like to see the OP's coin. For whatever it is worth to him, I don't think a cameo designation will matter much in terms of the value. The toning (if attractive) will determine the vast majority of its value.

 

Please keep your comments about copper and vintage proofs out of the thread. I'm only interested in MODERN CAMEO PROOF COINS of which 99%are produced with cameo contrast.

 

Anyway, I got my answer:

 

PCGS & NGC will designate darkly toned coins as CAMEO as long as the relief is fully frosted; however, in some instances they MAY drop an "as made" DCAM coin down to a CAM if the toning is very dark. As far as I know (still waiting for reply) ANACS and ICG do the same.

 

Thanks all!

[MarkFeld]

Sounds like your TPG grader buddy reflects the PCGS view. Grading companies do vary slightly on this cameo game. Not so much for the amount of contrast required but for instance PCGS never graded coppers as cameo unless they are full red. So if you see a PCGS copper cameo that's not full red, then it probably turned dark in the holder. NGC does grade copper cameos in RB and I own a beautiful '51 Lincoln that's RB Cameo. Also moderns are assumed cameo due to die prep, chrome plating and other improvements. All are cameo after about 1978. Those early Ikes are coined from dies prepared like means used from 1950 and even earlier. They are very beautiful coins even though I don't consider the design very appealing.

 

If we were discussing toned copper, then I would agree that PCGS takes it too far when it will only slab (supposedly) "red" coins as cameos. There are a number of coins that are RB or possibly even BN where there is sufficient contrast and depth of mirroring to make a determination. NGC will slab any coin as a cameo that warrants it. The fact that NGC refused is telling. I would actually like to see the OP's coin. For whatever it is worth to him, I don't think a cameo designation will matter much in terms of the value. The toning (if attractive) will determine the vast majority of its value.

 

Please keep your comments about copper and vintage proofs out of the thread. I'm only interested in MODERN CAMEO PROOF COINS of which 99%are produced with cameo contrast.

 

Anyway, I got my answer:

 

PCGS & NGC will designate darkly toned coins as CAMEO as long as the relief is fully frosted; however, in some instances they MAY drop an "as made" DCAM coin down to a CAM if the toning is very dark. As far as I know (still waiting for reply) ANACS and ICG do the same.

 

Thanks all!

 

The discussion about copper and vintage Proofs is perfectly relevant, because the same criteria apply to them. It doesn't matter if a very large % of modern proof coins are produced with Cameo contrast. It's what the graders can see that counts, not what they estimate or imagine.