OMG!

[CSdot]

I am surprised the moderators ATS haven't pulled this yet. If his statement is not an indictment of the system and confirmation of our worst fears, then I don't know what is. I don't know the poster, but I am cutting and pasting as I suspect the post will not be allowed to stay on their site for long.

 

[q]Originally posted by: jdimmick

I have to be careful how to respond to this, because I run the risk of being booted.

 

It happens all the time, I have had several instances where I have tried to get the upgrade, and failed, sometimes twice, only to have the national dealer I sold it too, get it and cac as well in some cases.

 

There are times where I have used it too my advantage by using the national dealer to get the upgrade, then have him sell it for me, so it benefits both of us

 

On a seated key I sold late last year, one of the national dealers I know well I was going to have him sell it for me. He said and I quote" Let me upgrade this first, before we sell it" I said " already tried, wont go. He said give it to me ill get it:

 

sure enough a week later "upgraded" and he sold it for me in two days.

 

In no way is this a reflection on PCGS , NGC or any other service, its just nature of the business.[/q]

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=961126&enterthread=y

 

[orifdoc]

His comments are just a presentation of anecdotal evidence. Of course that happens sometimes. With millions of grading events there are going to be a few random things that will seem downright conspiratorial. I've had coins upgrade on the first try after a bunch of failed attempts by "big shot" dealers too. It works both ways.

 

Show me some actual evidence of favoritism and I'll sit up & listen. If actual evidence of that got out it would likely be the end of that TPG.

 

Don't forget, some dealers have some expertise on gaming the system a bit - submitting at certain times or "setting up" a submission. Does that work? Some are sure convinced.

[coinman_23885]

Subjects like this are always touchy as there are several potential factors at play, and it is difficult to "prove" actual nepotism if it exists at all.

 

First, chance does play a role and we do not know how many times the dealer submitted it to get the desired result. Sometimes if the grade doesn't fit, you must resubmit (and resubmit and resubmit)... Sometimes it does take several resubmissions to get a coin in the "right" plastic.

 

Second, I am also interested in knowing the other coins in the submission each time the piece was graded. Graders are human, and I wouldn't rule out the psychological effect from the other coins in the submission. For instance, if you have a submission of highly original gem mid-19th century coinage with one borderline coin, don't think that this doesn't have a subconscious effect on the grader. By the same token, if a nice coin is included with a bunch of low graded material that is unoriginal, I wouldn't be surprised if a nice coin in the mix paid the price whether this effect in conscious or not. Think of the eBay sellers that every now and then come up with a coin with "plausible toning" and then think about the other AT dreck he or she is selling... It influences your decision, right?

 

Third, I have always been fascinated with the PCGS claims because of the allegations that the FTC made against PCGS in its 1990 filing which attacked advertising PCGS made about is objectivity in grading, consistency, and liquidity of PCGS coins (among other things). That matter was resolved by consent decree so there was never an adjudication on whether the FTC's allegations were accurate/true.

[brg5658]

The most interesting and useful reply in the thread ATS was the insightful and very sagacious post by Tom Bush. That man simply knows his stuff, and I read everything he writes with a very open mind and with utmost interest in the message. In particular, Tom linked to his blog post titled "Will the Efficiency of the TPGs Naturally Lead to all Worthwhile Coins Becoming Overgraded?"

 

Tom is a brilliant guy: level-headed, fantastic eye for original coins, and very willing to share his knowledge.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

The most interesting and useful reply in the thread ATS was the insightful and very sagacious post by Tom Bush. That man simply knows his stuff, and I read everything he writes with a very open mind and with utmost interest in the message. In particular, Tom linked to his blog post titled "Will the Efficiency of the TPGs Naturally Lead to all Worthwhile Coins Becoming Overgraded?"

 

Tom is a brilliant guy: level-headed, fantastic eye for original coins, and very willing to share his knowledge.

 

 

I agree with you, and have always found Mr. Bush's sage advice and commentary to be useful.

[MJ]

The most interesting and useful reply in the thread ATS was the insightful and very sagacious post by Tom Bush. That man simply knows his stuff, and I read everything he writes with a very open mind and with utmost interest in the message. In particular, Tom linked to his blog post titled "Will the Efficiency of the TPGs Naturally Lead to all Worthwhile Coins Becoming Overgraded?"

 

Tom is a brilliant guy: level-headed, fantastic eye for original coins, and very willing to share his knowledge.

 

 

I agree with you, and have always found Mr. Bush's sage advice and commentary to be useful.

 

I've been lucky to have gotten to know Tom pretty well over the years. He is indeed awesome

 

mark

[RWB]

Wow! Never thought I see the time when the moderators allowed language like "sagacious" to be used on the public boards.

 

What's next, "perspicacious?"

[Insider]

Thanks for introducing me to Mr. Bush's writing. As to grade changes, It happens lots of times and it seems every dealer has his own story - get over it and learn to play the game just as the OP does.

 

Kudos to PCGS for leaving this stuff up for our comments!

 

EDIT: Whoops, got my forums crossed up! this is the NGC site

[brg5658]

Wow! Never thought I see the time when the moderators allowed language like "sagacious" to be used on the public boards.

 

What's next, "perspicacious?"

 

RWB is a very perspicacious poster on these forums.

 

...

...

 

Doesn't seem to have broken the software.

[RWB]

But we might be banned for using 4-syllable words!

[Raisethis2]

Ronald Reagan once used the phrase "trust, but verify" when negotiating an arms control agreement. That logic, however sound, is not practiced in the coin grading business. Rather, you submit your coins with the promise that your coins will be provided a random number then forwarded through a random process that guarantees that the actual submitter is never known by the persons grading the coins.

 

This seems logical until the public begins to count off the instances they know of where the public trust has been betrayed. Like the huge volumes of a companies stock being bought or sold a day before a major announcement. The Senator who enters public service from the middle class but leaves a multi-millionaire. The police shooting witnessed by 15 other cops who's written account differs substantially from the video tape, etc,etc.

 

There's no evidence I'm aware of that's ever come to light proving anything unsavory has ever taken place. Still, people have been conditioned to be skeptical. Until the human element has been completely removed from the grading process (something I hope will never happen) people will question.

 

That fact alone is probably the greatest deterrent to any buddy buddy stuff.

 

 

[cgcmod8]

But we might be banned for using 4-syllable words!

[physics-fan3.14]

Wow! Never thought I see the time when the moderators allowed language like "sagacious" to be used on the public boards.

 

What's next, "perspicacious?"

 

RWB is a very perspicacious poster on these forums.

 

...

...

 

Doesn't seem to have broken the software.

 

He perspires a lot?

 

[Raisethis2]

Sweating to the oldies.

[Kurtdog]

I am surprised the moderators ATS haven't pulled this yet. If his statement is not an indictment of the system and confirmation of our worst fears, then I don't know what is.

It's an indictment of the system, but so what, who cares? Nobody, really. It's a wake-up call, if it's anything, for those disillusioned souls who still need to have blind-faith in the system.

[cladking]

But we might be banned for using 4-syllable words!

 

Unwarranted polysyllabic utterances manifested nonsensibly & irratably.

 

This is the type of stuff up with which we must not put.

[cladking]

Sometimes responding to a post just draws attention to it. The poster in question is a good poster who might have simply omitted the last sentence and still made the point adequately. But I'm not going to second guess someone on issues of sematics and language usage. It's better to say what we mean and consider this meaning before posting.

 

If I took my own advice I'd delete this post.