Langboard v. U.S. Dept. of Treasury, et al. - Rehearing

[coinman_23885]

I am unaware of any 1964-D Peace dollars having been confiscated in the late 1960's or early 1970's. If you have evidence of this happening could you please share it with us.

 

There is no evidence that I know of that the Mint allowed employees to purchase 1964-D Peace dollars at face value but later required the employees to return them. I once spoke with a retired Denver Mint employee who told me that it happened, but I have no "evidence" of this conversation. I was merely there when it happened.

 

I have a letter from former Denver coin dealer Dan Brown that says that he had a conversation with Denver Mint Superintendent Fern Miller which says that she told him that coins were sold to employees and later recalled, which could become evidence in a trial someday if one were to surface and the owner were to sue the government for the right to sell it, but for now it remains hearsay on the part of Mr. Brown.

 

The U.S. Mint denies that such a sale ever took place, but the Mint has been known to lie when it suits their needs.

 

TD

 

The information was actually from an article posted on the PCGS site and written by one of the members of the board of experts. I haven't personally checked the Mint records, but I am sure RWB probably has and can elaborate. Here is the quote and link:

 

As time went by, there were rumors that some 1964-D Peace dollars had escaped the U.S. Mint. Eva Adams was under a lot of scrutiny and when asked whether any of these coins existed, her response was that they were all melted. However, years later according to Mint records, two test strikes resurfaced. The two coins that surfaced were apparently from the 30 test pieces that were sent to Washington for inspection. Those two coins remained in the Treasury Vault until 1970 but were immediately destroyed by the U.S. Mint as soon as they were discovered....

 

Others have mentioned that in 1965 Mint employees were given the opportunity to exchange the 1964-D Peace dollars at face value when they were originally struck. However, the Mint requested that employees bring them back once they were ordered to be destroyed.

 

http://www.pcgs.com/News/1964-d-Peace-Dollars-Do-They-Really-Exist

 

In looking back at the article, I do see that you are correct that employee exchange was hearsay, but it could be admissible under the party admission/statement against interest hearsay exception if one surfaces, someone with actual knowledge of an admission of a government employee or the Mint itself corroborates it, and if litigation results.

[BAJJERFAN]

Would the Government have been better off claiming the coins were improperly removed from the Mint instead of being stolen?

 

Can there be theft if nothing is missing?

 

Seems to me if the Government had sufficient proof, they would have sought forfeit of the coins under CAFRA.

[seventee]

BAJJERFAN wrote:

Would the Government have been better off claiming the coins were improperly removed from the Mint instead of being stolen?

 

No.Because the 1928 bag of double eagles is stolen government property since 1933,when the theft occurred. The bag was found missing when they did the audit just prior to starting the melt,or death process,of melting an enormous dollar value of gold coin,the so-called Great Gold Melt of 1937.

 

It just occurs to me what a great book it would make if someone had the wherewithal to research and write about, gold melts of the 1930's, in the National Archives.Okay,back to trying to make a point:

 

The '28's from the bag($5000) are stolen.When a stolen '28 is swapped for a '33,the '33 eventually becomes STOLEN when the '28 is melted.

 

The melted '28 stays on the premises with the '28's that preceeded it.Together, they form a golden puddle which eventually hardens and cools.The gold is in a rough ingot form now.The ingot stays on the premises as US government property at the Mint.

 

When that '33 walks out the door of the Mint,without proper authorization,it becomes STOLEN United States Government Property.

 

The so-called Langbord coins,or "the Coins" left the Mint in the big pockets of someone or someone's baggy pants. I've been thinking of looking for some pictures showing the clothing men wore in the the '30's.I have the idea that baggy pants were "in" rather than "out" in those days.

 

I once advocated offering the Langbords a reward,a substantial reward, for finding the government's stolen property. I'm thinking now there is no turning to the other coming from either side at this point. It's full speed ahead,damn the torpedoes for both sides.Like putting blinders on a horse for a horse race,the legal teams charge ahead,neither knowing where they are going or when they will get there.

 

Justice must be for both sides.If it is not,any victory is a hollow one.

 

I'm enjoying writing about 1920's,30's,and '40's stuff. It must have been an amazing time to be alive during the '30's and '40's.Characters like Bonnie and Clyde,Al Capone,Baby Face Nelson,J. Edgar Hoover,Elliot Ness,Israel Switt,the list goes on and of the the famous and the infamous.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

BAJJERFAN wrote:

Would the Government have been better off claiming the coins were improperly removed from the Mint instead of being stolen?

 

No.Because the 1928 bag of double eagles is stolen government property since 1933 when the theft occurred. The bag was found missing when they did the audit just prior to starting the melt,or death process,of melting a vast quantity of gold coins, the so-called Great Gold Melt of 1937.

 

It just occurs to me what a great book it would make if someone had the wherewithal to research and write about, gold melts of the 1930's, in the National Archives.Okay,back to trying to make a point:

 

The '28's from the bag($5000) are stolen.When a stolen '28 is swapped for a '33,the '33 eventually becomes STOLEN when the '28 is melted.

 

The melted '28 stays on the premises with the '28's that preceeded it.Together, they form a golden puddle which eventually hardens and cools.The gold is in a rough ingot form now.The ingot stays on the premises as US government property at the Mint.

 

When that '33 walks out the door of the Mint,without proper authorization,it becomes STOLEN United States Government Property.

 

The so-called Langbord coins,or "the Coins" left the Mint in the big pockets of someone or someone's baggy pants. I've been thinking of looking for some pictures showing the clothing men wore in the the '30's.I have the idea that baggy pants were "in" rather than "out" in those days.

 

I once advocated offering the Langbords a reward,a substantial reward, for finding the government's stolen property. I'm thinking now there is no turning to the other coming from either side at this point. It's full speed ahead,damn the torpedoes for both sides.Like putting blinders on a horse for a horse race,the legal teams charge ahead,neither knowing where they are going or when they will get there.

 

Justice must be for both sides.If it is not,any victory is a hollow one.

 

I'm enjoying writing about 1920's,30's,and '40's stuff. It must have been an amazing time to be alive during the '30's and '40's.Characters like Bonnie and Clyde,Al Capone,Baby Face Nelson,J. Edgar Hoover,Elliot Ness,Israel Switt,the list goes on and of the the famous and the infamous.

 

 

Without proper authorization has not been established as fact. It has been established as a heck of a story, though.

[BAJJERFAN]

BAJJERFAN wrote:

Would the Government have been better off claiming the coins were improperly removed from the Mint instead of being stolen?

 

No.Because the 1928 bag of double eagles is stolen government property since 1933,when the theft occurred. The bag was found missing when they did the audit just prior to starting the melt,or death process,of melting an enormous dollar value of gold coin,the so-called Great Gold Melt of 1937.

 

It just occurs to me what a great book it would make if someone had the wherewithal to research and write about, gold melts of the 1930's, in the National Archives.Okay,back to trying to make a point:

 

The '28's from the bag($5000) are stolen.When a stolen '28 is swapped for a '33,the '33 eventually becomes STOLEN when the '28 is melted.

 

The melted '28 stays on the premises with the '28's that preceeded it.Together, they form a golden puddle which eventually hardens and cools.The gold is in a rough ingot form now.The ingot stays on the premises as US government property at the Mint.

 

When that '33 walks out the door of the Mint,without proper authorization,it becomes STOLEN United States Government Property.

 

The so-called Langbord coins,or "the Coins" left the Mint in the big pockets of someone or someone's baggy pants. I've been thinking of looking for some pictures showing the clothing men wore in the the '30's.I have the idea that baggy pants were "in" rather than "out" in those days.

 

I once advocated offering the Langbords a reward,a substantial reward, for finding the government's stolen property. I'm thinking now there is no turning to the other coming from either side at this point. It's full speed ahead,damn the torpedoes for both sides.Like putting blinders on a horse for a horse race,the legal teams charge ahead,neither knowing where they are going or when they will get there.

 

Justice must be for both sides.If it is not,any victory is a hollow one.

 

I'm enjoying writing about 1920's,30's,and '40's stuff. It must have been an amazing time to be alive during the '30's and '40's.Characters like Bonnie and Clyde,Al Capone,Baby Face Nelson,J. Edgar Hoover,Elliot Ness,Israel Switt,the list goes on and of the the famous and the infamous.

 

 

That's quite some speculation. So A steals B and B is switched with C means that C is now stolen. HMMM! Did the Government actually propose that? Unless they swapped out the whole bag of 28s, there has to be a small hoard of 1928 DEs or 1933 DEs out there somewhere.

 

BTW where is the proof that stolen 1928s were exchanged for 1933s? There was apparently no verification that the coins for melt were all 1933s and not mixed dates.

[BAJJERFAN]

BAJJERFAN wrote:

Would the Government have been better off claiming the coins were improperly removed from the Mint instead of being stolen?

 

No.Because the 1928 bag of double eagles is stolen government property since 1933 when the theft occurred. The bag was found missing when they did the audit just prior to starting the melt,or death process,of melting a vast quantity of gold coins, the so-called Great Gold Melt of 1937.

 

It just occurs to me what a great book it would make if someone had the wherewithal to research and write about, gold melts of the 1930's, in the National Archives.Okay,back to trying to make a point:

 

The '28's from the bag($5000) are stolen.When a stolen '28 is swapped for a '33,the '33 eventually becomes STOLEN when the '28 is melted.

 

The melted '28 stays on the premises with the '28's that preceeded it.Together, they form a golden puddle which eventually hardens and cools.The gold is in a rough ingot form now.The ingot stays on the premises as US government property at the Mint.

 

When that '33 walks out the door of the Mint,without proper authorization,it becomes STOLEN United States Government Property.

 

The so-called Langbord coins,or "the Coins" left the Mint in the big pockets of someone or someone's baggy pants. I've been thinking of looking for some pictures showing the clothing men wore in the the '30's.I have the idea that baggy pants were "in" rather than "out" in those days.

 

I once advocated offering the Langbords a reward,a substantial reward, for finding the government's stolen property. I'm thinking now there is no turning to the other coming from either side at this point. It's full speed ahead,damn the torpedoes for both sides.Like putting blinders on a horse for a horse race,the legal teams charge ahead,neither knowing where they are going or when they will get there.

 

Justice must be for both sides.If it is not,any victory is a hollow one.

 

I'm enjoying writing about 1920's,30's,and '40's stuff. It must have been an amazing time to be alive during the '30's and '40's.Characters like Bonnie and Clyde,Al Capone,Baby Face Nelson,J. Edgar Hoover,Elliot Ness,Israel Switt,the list goes on and of the the famous and the infamous.

 

 

Without proper authorization has not been established as fact. It has been established as a heck of a story, though.

 

So where is the documentation that the coins were approved to be released to circulation? Or the documentation that they were to be held and not released? We know that the coins passed assay tests at the Mint's facility in D.C. and the results were sent on to Philly. Were they monetized at that point or was it necessary to notify the Federal Reserve [or physically deliver said coins to the FR] in order to complete the monetization process?

 

If the coins weren't approved for release yet are found outside the confines of the Mint, it would seem to be much easier to prove improper release than it would be to prove theft.

[seventee]

Some truths:

 

1. The "meticulous" written Cashier records of 1933 and 1934 were shown to line up "mathematically absolutely." Another way to say this is "perfectly."

These records are accounting records made by the Cashier.The relevant records cover 1933 & 1934,January through December. The records of interest,according to Tripp,are complete. Mint supervisors could be held financially responsible for losses in their Department.The records tried to account for every penny.

 

Edwin Dressel,Mint Superintendent starting in 1935,was held financially responsible for the stolen bag of 1928 Double Eagles.Dressel was finally relieved of the debt to the Mint by Act of Congress in 1945.

 

445,500 1933 double eagles were made as indicated by Coiner's records.The records of the Coiner with the records of the cashier with the records of the vault,although "untidy," "dovetailed with one another," according to Tripp. A complete,well almost complete,picture has been made.So,we know that theft occurred, but how?

 

2.It can be shown,and was,by Tripp and others,using the Cashier's records in tandem with other Mint records,that "no 1933 double eagle coin was issued to the public."

 

Fact:The record shows no 1933 double eagle left the Mint.The fact is,some did.If we can't trust the records,the same records that existed in 1947 for the Barnard trial what can we trust?

 

3. Double eagles dated 1933 start to show up in the public early in 1937,however.The going rate for a '33 double from fence (ex.,Switt) to dealer (ex.,Macallister) was $500.The Great Gold Melt started February 3,1937.There were melts in the '30's before 1937 but this melt of '37 was huge,the melting of well over 1,000,000 double eagle gold coins over the next few years.The 445,469 '33's that should have all been melted in 1937 had a face value of over $89 million.To put this number into perhaps a better perspective,whatever $89 million could buy in 1937 translates into what $ 1-1/2 billion,billion with a "B," can buy in 2015.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It took me awhile, but now I think I understand. You are vetting the book in advance. A smart approach. What better reviewers than the cyberspace numismatic audience? Nothing wrong with doing so. It is probably not helpful to disclose the end game, and have observations tainted and not raw and unedited. I would have done the same, in order to be ready with a final draft when the story is concluded. Kudos.

[seventee]

MrMknowitall wrote:

It took me awhile, but now I think I understand. You are vetting the book in advance. A smart approach. What better reviewers than the cyberspace numismatic audience? Nothing wrong with doing so. It is probably not helpful to disclose the end game, and have observations tainted and not raw and unedited. I would have done the same, in order to be ready with a final draft when the story is concluded. Kudos.

 

I am writing about a possibility of how the 1933 double eagles left the Mint.By telling the reader of a book or viewer of the movie,no matter, of "how" you are telling the story.There are other possibilities of how the 1933 double eagles left the Mint.The most thrilling possibility will be written for "The Coins,The Movie." To reveal that possibility here would be a mistake and an even bigger mistake to reveal ATS.

 

My movie will have a scene featuring Izzy:

 

Izzy loved to hang around the Mint. He would leave his store on Jeweler's Row and walk down to the Philadelphia Mint building a few blocks down.There,he sold his scrap to the Mint. Izzy dabbled in coin trading and fancied himself a dealer.

 

Note: Izzy goes to the Mint Cashier's office frequently.Izzy is in his early '40's by 1936,already an ill-tempered,crusty kind of a man.A scrooge type. Everything is serious business to Izzy.Izzy is wealthy and likes to play bigshot.

 

See Ch. 12 in Illegal Tender,The Red-Headed Philadelphia Sucker and the Deacon for more.

 

There,Tripp tells this story:

 

..."The '31 and '32 double eagles had been rare,hardly if ever seen in the marketplace until 1936.Then,like worms after a quick downpour,they started popping up everywhere and Israel Switt had been the source.

 

Max Barenstein had got the best deal of all,perhaps because of his offer in the February,1936,Numismatist to buy (the) two dates. Switt had shambled into the classy shop on Madison Avenue in May,1936,and sold a half-dozen of each date. Max had paid Izzy forty dollars a coin-dirt cheap,only barely more than the most common,beat-up double eagles on the market and only six dollars above their gold value.

 

Barenstein hadn't been able to contain his good fortune and had crowed to Jack Rubin,a gregarious runner for the Forty-seventh Street jewelry and gold trade,that Israel Switt was "a red-headed Philadelphia sucker" for having sold him the coins for "their bullion instead of their numismatic value." Rubin,a known receiver of stolen goods,with a long,thin face and a Jimmy Cagney cockiness,stirred things up by passing the comment on to Switt.

 

The cantankerous "sucker" Switt had learned his lesson and when it came to business, seldom made the same mistake twice. He upped the price on the '31's and '32's from then on. Rubin himself bought a few, Brooklyn dealer Joseph Barnet some,Reed others,and Macallister remembered buying one each "from Switt for $75 apiece" in July,1937,selling them on to Max Mehl for a hundred dollars each.

 

These dates had been legally issued by the government and were not subject to confiscations,but they did form a golden link among the 1933 double eagles,George McCann, and Israel Switt, who once again Met with Strang and his partner."

 

Illegal Tender,pp.162-163

 

The story of a deal between Switt and Barenstein,as told above by Tripp,is a true story.It appears Izzy started doing "due diligence" soon after getting his '31's and '32's ripped from him by Barenstein in 1936.

 

Offer to buy various dates of double eagles,among them,1933. BERNS ANTIQUE SHOP, 71 East 59th Street, New York City.Proprietor,Max Barenstein, A.N.A. 4103

 

ad can been on p.163 of Illegal Tender

 

"like worms after a quick downpour"

 

Note: It appears to me that Izzy had no '33's to offer Barenstein when Izzy went to New York City in 1936.

 

Izzy would "sit on" his coins it seems.

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

MrMknowitall wrote:

It took me awhile, but now I think I understand. You are vetting the book in advance. A smart approach. What better reviewers than the cyberspace numismatic audience? Nothing wrong with doing so. It is probably not helpful to disclose the end game, and have observations tainted and not raw and unedited. I would have done the same, in order to be ready with a final draft when the story is concluded. Kudos.

 

I am writing about a possibility of how the 1933 double eagles left the Mint.By telling the reader of a book or viewer of the movie,no matter, of "how" you are telling the story.There are other possibilities of how the 1933 double eagles left the Mint.The most thrilling possibility will be written for "The Coins,The Movie." To reveal that possibility here would be a mistake and an even bigger mistake to reveal ATS.

 

My movie will have a scene featuring Izzy:

 

Izzy loved to hang around the Mint. He would leave his store on Jeweler's Row and walk down to the Philadelphia Mint building a few blocks down.There,he sold his scrap to the Mint. Izzy dabbled in coin trading and fancied himself a dealer.

 

Note: Izzy goes to the Mint Cashier's office frequently.Izzy is in his early '40's by 1936,already an ill-tempered,crusty kind of a man.A scrooge type. Everything is serious business to Izzy.Izzy is wealthy and likes to play bigshot.

 

See Ch. 12 in Illegal Tender,The Red-Headed Philadelphia Sucker and the Deacon for more.

 

There,Tripp tells this story:

 

..."The '31 and '32 double eagles had been rare,hardly if ever seen in the marketplace until 1936.Then,like worms after a quick downpour,they started popping up everywhere and Israel Switt had been the source.

 

Max Barenstein had got the best deal of all,perhaps because of his offer in the February,1936,Numismatist to buy (the) two dates. Switt had shambled into the classy shop on Madison Avenue in May,1936,and sold a half-dozen of each date. Max had paid Izzy forty dollars a coin-dirt cheap,only barely more than the most common,beat-up double eagles on the market and only six dollars above their gold value.

 

Barenstein hadn't been able to contain his good fortune and had crowed to Jack Rubin,a gregarious runner for the Forty-seventh Street jewelry and gold trade,that Israel Switt was "a red-headed Philadelphia sucker" for having sold him the coins for "their bullion instead of their numismatic value." Rubin,a known receiver of stolen goods,with a long,thin face and a Jimmy Cagney cockiness,stirred things up by passing the comment on to Switt.

 

The cantankerous "sucker" Switt had learned his lesson and when it came to business, seldom made the same mistake twice. He upped the price on the '31's and '32's from then on. Rubin himself bought a few, Brooklyn dealer Joseph Barnet some,Reed others,and Macallister remembered buying one each "from Switt for $75 apiece" in July,1937,selling them on to Max Mehl for a hundred dollars each.

 

These dates had been legally issued by the government and were not subject to confiscations,but they did form a golden like among the 1933 double eagles,George McCann, and Israel Switt, who once again Met with Strang and his partner."

 

Illegal Tender,pp.162-163

 

The story of a deal between Switt and Barenstein,as told above by Tripp,is a true story.It appears Izzy started doing "due diligence" soon after getting his '31's and '32's ripped from him by Barenstein in 1936.

 

Offer to buy various dates of double eagles,among them,1933. BERNS ANTIQUE SHOP, 71 East 59th Street, New York City.Proprietor,Max Barenstein, A.N.A. 4103

 

ad can been on p.163 of Illegal Tender

 

"like worms after a quick downpour"

 

Note: It appears to me that Izzy had no '33's to offer Barenstein when Izzy went to New York City in 1936.

 

Izzy would "sit on" his coins it seems.

 

 

 

I thought so. I trust the vetting of doubtting Thomas opinions of the Board members whothat assisted in developing the various story lines are appreciated.

Make sure to mention us in the Foward....by name.

 

I should be at the top of the Forward, for outing your nefarious plan to obtain opinions without payment to us, and contributing to unemployment and increased economic strife. --

[seventee]

The set for the inside of the Mint is problematic.i need to be able to show 1933 Double eagles being stamped,carted off,counted and weighed.The press needs to be a real working coin press from the '30's.

 

Speaking of weighing McCann had inordinate interest in weighing coins. The swapped coins,in aggregate,would need to weigh the same as the '33's being swapped for. An easy source for the swap coins is from the stolen bag of '28's.

 

McCann finds 25 coins out of the bag that fill the bill and walks out the door with the rest of the bag over time.Izzy may have given McCann an order to fill telling McCann "twenty-five pieces are needed for my customers."

 

McCann more than doubles the government's money in the McCann-Switt caper.The problem here is that McCann keeps the government's money for himself.The 1933 double eagles have left the Mint through an unauthorized channel and are considered stolen.

 

Note: McCann would have needed cooperation to pull off the job of getting the '33's out of the Mint undetected.Two keys,used together,are necessary to open the Pyx box. McCann,as head cashier,has one key.Chester "Doc" Ziegler has the other.Doc was the Mint assayist and would have been great help to McCann while McCann learned about weights and tolerances.

 

 

[seventee]

BAJJERFAN wrote:

So where is the documentation that the coins were approved to be released to circulation? Or the documentation that they were to be held and not released? We know that the coins passed assay tests at the Mint's facility in D.C. and the results were sent on to Philly. Were they monetized at that point or was it necessary to notify the Federal Reserve [or physically deliver said coins to the FR] in order to complete the monetization process?

 

If the coins weren't approved for release yet are found outside the confines of the Mint, it would seem to be much easier to prove improper release than it would be to prove theft.

 

There's inconsistency of how government has regarded 1933 eagles v. 1933 double eagles. The April 5,1933 law needs to be amended to specifically include all 1933 dated gold coins with other "rare and unusual" coins.IMO

 

Lawyer who wants to be a hero in the numismatic community might work on changing or modifying the 1933 law that makes ownership of 1933 gold coins illegal or legal as determined by a specific calendar date,April 5,1933. Is there any way to tell what month and day a coin was made by examining it? 1933 eagle legal to own.1933 double eagle not legal to own.Inconsistent.Illogical.

Prevail in this case, 1933 double eagle v. 1933 eagle and the headlines will be screaming "1933 double eagle legal to own!"

 

Note:The 1933 EO was overturned when Gerald Ford signed a bill permitting gold ownership which went into effect December 31,1974.Why wouldn't the dates of gold coins become no point to consider after December 31,1974? Why didn't double eagles of year 1933 become as legal as the 1933 Eagles effective December 31,1974?

 

Monetization is the mechanism government is using to account for the pieces.If the mint record shows none left the Mint but it's clearly evident some did, then the books need to be reconciled with the fact. Ornate certificate of monetization issued by gov is the "blessing" the piece needs,fee $20.

 

The books are made to balance by monetizing.The books must be made to balance for the piece to be considered legal tender or money.2015 entries by Treasury officials onto the 1933-34 records finally accounting for all twenty pieces* of 1933 double eagles known to exist or have existed might be in order?

 

* possibly more.At least five more exist,in all likelihood.Twenty-five made.

Twenty known,eleven survived melting.

 

Discovery that a few '33's getting outside the Mint,by itself,probably wouldn't have surprised anyone but "now you are telling me a whole bag dated 1928(of 250,$5000 face) is missing?"

 

Those '28's would be scarcely noticed in the gold channels of the day a common-date Saint pretty much valued for its bullion content only in the '30's despite being considered by collectors as "rare and unusual" by having been made before April 5,1933?

 

 

[seventee]

McCann as head cashier could have easily gotten away with seeing to it that a few '33's spirited their way out of the Mint as if on wings of a dove...

 

Have Izzy supply the swapped for '28's.Use the one's needed so weights are within tolerances after swapping.This process of weighing/evaluating gold coin could could go on over considerable time by the two individuals with the only keys* to the Pyx box,George A. McCann,Mint Head Cashier and Chester "Doc" Ziegler,Mint Assayist.

 

*two keys were required to be used at the same time to open the Pyx box.

 

The Pyx box was used to store coins not used for assay and also to store coins after they came back from assay.I can see McCann doing swaps carefully at the Pyx box under the eagle eye of the assayer to make sure the weights come out out right,regardless of where the swap coins come from.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

McCann as head cashier could have easily gotten away with seeing to it that a few '33's spirited their way out of the Mint as if on wings of a dove...

 

Have Izzy supply the swapped for '28's.Use the one's needed so weights are within tolerances after swapping.This process of weighing/evaluating gold coin could could go on over considerable time by the two individuals with the only keys* to the Pyx box,George A. McCann,Mint Head Cashier and Chester "Doc" Ziegler,Mint Assayist.

 

*both keys were required to be used at the same time to open the Pyx box.

 

The Pyx box was used to store coins not used for assay and also to store coins after they came back from assay.I can see McCann doing swaps carefully at the Pyx box under the eagle eye of the assayer to make sure the weights come out out right,regardless of where the swap coins come from.

 

From a strictly scientific aspect, it could not have been accomplished on the wings of a dove.

 

The flight mechanics would have been seriously compromised, and the flight path could not be achieved, culminating in a downward force, the impact of which would have serious effects. The other danger is that on the way down, the dove would have been pooping all over the place, contaminating the Mint, and any coins in the vicinity.

[Conder101]

Mr1874, there seems to be big problem with your comments. They seem to hinge on the 1933 DE's being swapped for the stolen 1928 DE's. Do you have any proof they were swapped for the 28's and not some other date DE's? Your logic seems to be, a bag of 28 DE was discovered to be missing in 1937. The Cashier was suspected of having stolen them but nothing was ever proven. Izzy Switt was in possession of 1933 DE's. Therefore the Cashier supplied Switt with the 28's and he then exchanged them for the 33's.

 

I don't see how you can reach that conclusion from just that "evidence". Is it possible? yes, Is it any more possible than Switt just brought in other DE and exchanged them? I don't think so.

[seventee]

Mr1874, there seems to be big problem with your comments. They seem to hinge on the 1933 DE's being swapped for the stolen 1928 DE's. Do you have any proof they were swapped for the 28's and not some other date DE's? Your logic seems to be, a bag of 28 DE was discovered to be missing in 1937. The Cashier was suspected of having stolen them but nothing was ever proven. Izzy Switt was in possession of 1933 DE's. Therefore the Cashier supplied Switt with the 28's and he then exchanged them for the 33's.

 

A large enough pool of coins (250 1928's) is needed so that an aggregate of coins,like twenty-five 1928 double eagles will weigh the same as an aggregate of coins like twenty-five 1933 double eagles. Swiping '33's one at a time over time probably didn't happen.The pieces were stolen in small groups,perhaps five at a time. An easier way to say this is to make sure 1933 gold would all be accounted for by weight any swapping of coins would need to be done paying attention to weight,weight in aggregate.

 

A tiny "window of opportunity" to acquire a '33 double eagle lawfully at the Mint window did exist March 29-April 5 1933.It is highly doubtful that Izzy got his '33's at the Mint window in 1933,however.If it did happen,Izzy acquiring the '33's at the Mint window,the Mint record doesn't show that it happened. Remember,the Cashier records,the well-detailed,meticulous and complete records that Tripp analyzed show that not a single 1933 double eagle coin was issued to a member of the public.

 

not a single 1933 double eagle coin was issued to a member of the public.

How many times have we seen this phrase written in italics?

 

In May 1936 Izzy went to New York City to sell a few double eagles to Max Barenstein at his classy antique shop. Barenstein bought half a dozen each '31's and '32's,no '33's. Izzy wouldn't have been able to resist offering Barenstein a '33 if he had one in May,1936.

[MarkFeld]

Mr1874, there seems to be big problem with your comments. They seem to hinge on the 1933 DE's being swapped for the stolen 1928 DE's. Do you have any proof they were swapped for the 28's and not some other date DE's? Your logic seems to be, a bag of 28 DE was discovered to be missing in 1937. The Cashier was suspected of having stolen them but nothing was ever proven. Izzy Switt was in possession of 1933 DE's. Therefore the Cashier supplied Switt with the 28's and he then exchanged them for the 33's.

 

A large enough pool of coins (250 1928's) is needed so that an aggregate of coins,like twenty-five 1928 double eagles will weigh the same as an aggregate of coins like twenty-five 1933 double eagles. Swiping '33's one at a time over time probably didn't happen.The pieces were stolen in small groups,perhaps five at a time. An easier way to say this is to make sure 1933 gold would all be accounted for by weight any swapping of coins would need to be done paying attention to weight,weight in aggregate.

 

A tiny "window of opportunity" to acquire a '33 double eagle lawfully at the Mint window did exist March 29-April 5 1933.It is highly doubtful that Izzy got his '33's at the Mint window in 1933,however.

 

In May 1936 Izzy went to New York City to sell a few double eagles to Max Barenstein at his classy antique shop. Barenstein bought half a dozen each '31's and '32's,no '33's. Izzy wouldn't have been able to resist offering Barenstein a '33 if he had one in May,1936.

 

Oh, so you know how Izzy thought, too? Your theory could be correct, but it is based upon speculation, not proof. And property shouldn't be seized from citizens based upon speculation.

[seventee]

Mr Feld have you put yourself in Izzy's shoes,coat and cap?

 

I have put myself in McCann's shoes.I may have worked to get '33's out of the Mint myself but would have paid for them.Oh wait,that means an entry should be made on the cashier's records.

 

No entry,the Court considers that it didn't happen.

[MarkFeld]

Mr Feld have you put yourself in Izzy's shoes,coat and cap?

 

I have put myself in McCann's shoes.I may have worked to get '33's out of the Mint myself but would have paid for them.Oh wait,that means an entry should be made on the cashier's records.

 

No entry,the Court considers that it didn't happen.

 

If in McCann's and/or Izzy's shoes at that time, I might have arranged for a legal swap of 1933's for other dates. And I believe that is what happened.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It is exploration for a book.

Refuse to answer or comment without promise of compensation or lead page acknowledgement, and preferably on the cover, and note as a contributor.

 

Down with freebies.

[Conder101]

I admit I have not seen the cashier window records, but since one of their responsibilities was to exchange coin across the window I seriously doubt they weighed every coin they handed out and received and tried to make the weights match exactly. I also seriously doubt they recorded the dates of every coin they handed out. This was a cash exchange window, I would expect they only recorded amounts in and out so their drawer would balance.in face value amounts. they migh break it down but metal (so many dollars in silver so may in gold etc,) but probably not by denomination and certainly not by date.

[seventee]

Condor101

I admit I have not seen the cashier window records, but since one of their responsibilities was to exchange coin across the window I seriously doubt they weighed every coin they handed out and received and tried to make the weights match exactly. I also seriously doubt they recorded the dates of every coin they handed out. This was a cash exchange window, I would expect they only recorded amounts in and out so their drawer would balance.in face value amounts. they migh break it down but metal (so many dollars in silver so may in gold etc,) but probably not by denomination and certainly not by date.

 

The records as described by Legrome Davis,presiding judge Langbord v. United States:

 

"Because gold was a “sacred material” and represented the wealth of America, the Mint kept meticulous records on its gold coins. (Tr. 208, at 134). And, according to the Government’s primary expert David Tripp,6 many of the Mint’s records from the relevant time frame still exist in their entirety today.7 (Tr. 208, at 162-75).

 

Much of the trial testimony focused on the Philadelphia Mint cashier and the records he kept. The Mint cashier is, for all practical purposes,the “gatekeeper” of the coins. (Tr. 208, at 132). He is the last stop, so to speak, before the Mint’s coins go out into the real world. (Id.). In 1933, the Philadelphia Mint cashier was a Mr. Powell, and his assistant was a Mr. Ott. During this period of time, someone in the cashier’s office–presumably Powell and/or Ott–tracked the

movement of coins, including 1933 Double Eagles, into and out of the office. They did so using two complementary documents - the “cashier’s daily settlement” and the “cashier’s daily statement.” (Tr. 208, 162-75, 181, 196-98).

The daily settlement reflects the cashier’s end-of-day accounting of the money in his control. (Tr. 208, at 196-98). Important to this case, the daily settlement is segregated into three (3) categories of coins: one for the current year’s production, i.e., 1933 Double Eagles; one for prior years’ coins; and one for circulated coins (for example, coins that had been in commerce but later came back to the Mint as worn). (Id.). The daily settlement is a handwritten,8 unsigned document.9 (Tr. 213, at 165, 179). The daily statements, on the other hand, are typed and signed,but they do not reflect the dates of the coins. (Tr. 213, at 165; 214, at 21-22). In addition to tracking gold coins, the cashier’s records tracked such minutiae as a three (3) cent payout to a customer who evidently received his money in the form of two (2) 1932 pennies and one (1)

1933 penny. (Tr. 209, at 9-25). As should be apparent, the records are exquisitely detailed...."

 

______________________________________________________________

 

6 Tripp literally wrote the book on the 1933 Double Eagle. (Tr. 208, at 90-93). By his estimation, Tripp has spent “the better part of 10 years of [his] life” researching the coin. (Tr. 208, at 94-98).

 

7 The Claimants vigorously disputed the reliability of the Mint’s records, pointing to,among other things, Secret Service reports from 1937 concerning a missing bag of 1928 Double Eagles. In these reports, some individuals characterized the Mint’s record keeping methods as obsolete, inadequate, and lax. (Tr. 214, at 28-29, 39-46). However, Tripp noted that several years later,

the Secret Service was able to conclude that the 1933 Double Eagles–the subject of this dispute–were stolen based on the same set of records. (Tr. 214, at 41-42, 44). Moreover,these Secret Service reports concerned the state of the Mint’s vault records, not the cashier’s records on which the Government primarily relied. The fact that the Mint’s vault records were “untidy” and unsophisticated did not change Tripp’s conclusion because he looked at how all the documents fit together and corroborated each other. (Tr. 210, at 82-84; Tr. 213, at 132-38).

 

8 The Government’s forensic accountant Wayne Geisser opined that a ledger is not necessarily less reliable just because it is handwritten. (Tr. 217, at 51).

 

9 Tripp admits that he has seen no written rule or regulation requiring the Mint cashier to keep records having this level of detail, e.g., records tracking coins by date. (Tr. 213, at 177-79). Regardless, these records do, in fact, exist. Furthermore, Mint employees were held personally responsible for missing money, which would have given the cashier an incentive to keep detailed

records accounting for every last dollar. (Tr. 208, at 180).

 

In addition, Tripp conceded that he could not be sure that the daily settlements were audited. (Tr. 213, at 179). However, by rule, the Mint cashier’s holdings were to be audited at least once a month, and Tripp believes such an audit would have likely entailed looking at both the daily settlements and the daily statements. (Tr. 213, at 179, 182-85).

 

10 In conducting his analysis, Tripp did not see any mistakes in the cashier’s daily statements or settlements. (Tr. 209, at 37).

 

11 In forming his opinion, Tripp also relied upon the Mint’s daily process books, which detail the coining department’s physical production of the coins; delivery books, which record the delivery of coins to the cashier; assay transmittal and report sheets; and basement vault records, among other things. (Tr. 208, at 117-18; Tr. 210, at 40-42). According to Tripp, the records fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, dovetailing with each other to paint a complete picture. (Tr. 209, at 113-17).

_______________________________________________________________

Case 2:06-cv-05315-LDD Document 233 Filed 08/29/12

 

A wonderful thing about the cashier records is that they are complete.The Daily Settlement did track coin by date..."Important to this case, the daily settlement is segregated into three (3) categories of coins: one for the current year’s production, i.e., 1933 Double Eagles; one for prior years’ coins; and one for circulated coins (for example, coins that had been in commerce but later came back to the Mint as worn). (Id.)

 

[coinman_23885]

I admit I have not seen the cashier window records, but since one of their responsibilities was to exchange coin across the window I seriously doubt they weighed every coin they handed out and received and tried to make the weights match exactly. I also seriously doubt they recorded the dates of every coin they handed out. This was a cash exchange window, I would expect they only recorded amounts in and out so their drawer would balance.in face value amounts. they migh break it down but metal (so many dollars in silver so may in gold etc,) but probably not by denomination and certainly not by date.

 

+1

[seventee]

The all-important weight gets sort of shuffled around and then forgotten about.Every tiny scrap of gold that the Mint has on its premises is to be accounted for. There is room in the tolerances,when one considers hundreds of thousands of coins in aggregate,to get away with swiping a few if you know what you're doing.

 

Doc Ziegler,assayist,would know "what's up" with weights and tolerances and be of great assistance to George McCann,head cashier,who is on a noble mission to see to it that a few 1933 double eagles survive a fiery death.

 

If McCann had not been so greedy (he is the most likely culprit in the bag theft although no one was ever convicted),and not made such a substantial theft,the government (meaning Dr. Leland Howard,Director of the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations of the Treasury Department) would not have cared about a few '33 double eagles getting into private hands.After all,there was no 1933 gold found to be missing at melt. A few could have crossed the counter at the Mint window early in April,1933.The first '33 doubles had passed assay so a few may have been made available to the public starting Friday March 30 at the earliest,no wait,most likely the following Wednesday would be the first day one could get a bright,shimmering,1933 dated double eagle for its face value at the Mint window.

 

I had found earlier that Wednesday was continually showing up as a big day of the business week in the 1930's Mint. I would maintain that double eagles dated 1933 would be put out for trade with the public no earlier than Wednesday,April 5,1933.Oh wait a minute...Wednesday April 5 1933 is a day to remember....Executive Order 6102...

 

It seems the "window of opportunity" has simply vanished the same day it was born.

 

McCann is a hero in one sense,a villain,or scoundrel, in another.The movie viewer is faced with the dilemma of which McCann to identify with,McCann the hero? or McCann the scoundrel?

 

Speaking of measures,the Mint is capable of weighing to 1/100 grain (troy) accuracy.One troy grain is 1/480 troy ounce.

[seventee]

I get from my readings that gov was quite reluctant at first to go after the double eagles because,after all, the temporary owners of the coins were among some of their best customers.

 

Is the Mint being seen as discouraging coin collecting by being overly zealous in recovering 1933 double eagles?

 

The way to get 1933 Double Eagles legal to own is to change the law. Congress needs to change the law by applying whatever law is necessary to make it legal for 1933 double eagles to be owned. People who feel strongly enough about this should form a coalition and start speaking up about it.

 

Someone needs to have a good,sound argument ready to present before Congress why 1933 double eagles should be legal to own. File lawsuit and go from there.Lawyers working pro bono on two separate teams are handling the case.

 

After the case is won in year 2025,donations are solicited to help pay legal expenses.

[Kurtdog]

So in short do I understand the government wants to keep the coins and ?

You say "some descendants of the coin's owners want them" I would say "some descendants of a jeweler who knowingly came into possession of stolen coin's through illegal means, now want to enrich themselves from that act."

Please show us some/any proof that the coin were stolen.

The coins were never officially released by the Mint.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

So in short do I understand the government wants to keep the coins and ?

You say "some descendants of the coin's owners want them" I would say "some descendants of a jeweler who knowingly came into possession of stolen coin's through illegal means, now want to enrich themselves from that act."

Please show us some/any proof that the coin were stolen.

The coins were never officially released by the Mint.

 

That is debatable, and depends in part on what "officially released" means. It is sort of the point of the entire fiasco.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I get from my readings that gov was quite reluctant at first to go after the double eagles because,after all, the temporary owners of the coins were among some of their best customers.

 

Is the Mint being seen as discouraging coin collecting by being overly zealous in recovering 1933 double eagles?

 

The way to get 1933 Double Eagles legal to own is to change the law. Congress needs to change the law by applying whatever law is necessary to make it legal for 1933 double eagles to be owned. People who feel strongly enough about this should form a coalition and start speaking up about it.

 

Someone needs to have a good,sound argument ready to present before Congress why 1933 double eagles should be legal to own. File lawsuit and go from there.Lawyers working pro bono on two separate teams are handling the case.

 

After the case is won in year 2025,donations are solicited to help pay legal expenses.

 

A starting point might be the coin was made for, and at the expense of, the public taxpayer, for use in daily public commerce. The status is similar to the many coins that the U.S. Mint produced that gained value, due to, as an example, manufacturing process errors that were not known by the U.S. Mint prior to the coin reaching the general public.