Pogue collection sale at Southeby's

[jom]

At least the floor had a carpet....but folding metal chairs? Several lights out in the track lighting....Where has the "class" gone?

 

Don't get me started on the refreshments

 

 

Wow...they really went out on a limb there. Classy! Who did they get to cater the event? Walmart?

 

jom

[RWB]

The fire extinguisher is certainly a confidence-builder. At least your watery iced tea won't have to be used to put out a massive conflagration. (Even the table skirt looks like it hasn't been ironed...)

 

[delta]

MJ wrote: "I made sure not to scratch my nose during the sale." A fine line, and in such a situation didn't your nose get especially itchy? Many thanks for photos from the sale, that must be one of the Pogues in snapshot 3, did he explain why he was selling, and what he'd be doing with the proceeds?

 

As for bidding limits from Stacks Bowers, I discovered they have two levels, the first when your bidding limit is also your credit limit, where they obtain a complete credit report on you, requiring all your personal info. But however, if you call, telling them you decline to ask for credit, indicating you will always pay for any winnings up front, including having them wait to clear checks in advance of any shipments, they will give you a much higher bidding limit.

 

Reverting to MJ's Pogue auction photos, RWB demonstrated astute powers of observation, those comments appreciated. Sotheby's NYC was stingy.

[Kurtdog]

The bartender looks like he fell asleep standing up.

[RWB]

Uhmmm...I think that's the auctioneer...There's no bar to tend -- just cups, ice and a bowl of cookies or maybe "goldfish" crackers.

[leeg]

Wow. No wonder coin shows are failing.

 

I would expect a sale of this nature would bring out the Red Carpet.

 

Sad really.

 

[World Colonial]

Wow. No wonder coin shows are failing.

 

I would expect a sale of this nature would bring out the Red Carpet.

 

Sad really.

 

 

I'm not sure there is enough money in the coin auction business for the red carpet. I suspect not, regardless that Sotheby's was involved in this one. Part of the reason why I don't believe coins are ever going to be in the same financial league as currently more valuable forms of art.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Coin World has a thorough overview of the auction: http://www.coinworld.com/insights/pogue-collection-auction-totals-more-than--25-million.html#

[BillJones]

Heritage does a lot more than this for all of their evening auctions. My wife and I have made a meal out of what they service which includes salad, a warm meat, a starch and a desert. Given the build-up and prestige of the Pogue auctions, this is hard to believe.

 

As a general comment I would be very glad if coins never get to the state of art world when it comes to auctions. If it did, mostly all of us would priced out of the market for anything that is nicely preserved with high collector following.

 

Be careful of what you wish for ... it might come true.

 

[Kurtdog]

Uhmmm...I think that's the auctioneer...There's no bar to tend -- just cups, ice and a bowl of cookies or maybe "goldfish" crackers.

Oh yes, I didn't look close enough. I see the cookies, now. I love those 19th Century chocolate chip cookies. I wonder if MJ bought any of them. If they quadrupled his credit limit, I'd think he could afford them. But I think PCGS got the grades a little high on those. I know grading is subjective and an art and a science and all and that people write books on it it's so darn complicated, so I may be wrong. I hope MJ didn't get hungry and try to bite into one of those. I heard stories of people breaking their teeth when they bite into those hard plastic holders, that smarts!

[World Colonial]

I have never attended a live auction. There is no point in it because it isn't necessary and I am not spending a lot of money anyway.

 

I presume that if it made business sense to make coin auctions higher profile from this standpoint, that Stacks or Heritage would do it. Apparently, they do not, so it isn't. This subject has come up on occasion in the past (both here and on PCGS) and it should be apparent from a budget standpoint, the bidders aren't in the same league as art buyers and culturally it differs as well.

 

Though I don't know how many attend generally, most bidders aren't attending in person. Also, in this Pogue sale the average lot realized about $200K and the total auction about $25MM while it is routine for one painting to sell for more or a lot more than this amount.

 

Coins aren't ever going to be equivalent to fine art, regardless that I have read a few opinions which try to make a comparison and rationalize that coins are cheap, including one dealer in particular who has done it multiple times who I will not name here.

 

How many non-collectors are interested in the minutia which is discussed on this forum and PCGS? My answer is none which is why they aren't collectors. Not only are non-collectors not interested in the narrow forms of "rarity" which are considered such a big deal in US numismatics, I don't believe they are impressed with date rarity either.

 

Practically all of the greatest rarities in numismatics exist in multiple but look almost exactly the same as hundreds, thousands if not tens of thousands of others. Even a coin like an original 1804 dollar, to the non-collector, I don't believe it has any more significance than another Bust dollar of another date worth a few thousand. They may be aware of the distinction and why its important to numismatists but it doesn't mean anything to them except maybe financially.

 

I agree with you that if by some miracle it does happen, collecting as we all know it is over. Those who own the better coins will make a one-time windfall after which the traditional collector will be relegated to buying the "leftovers".

[RWB]

Like good chili, sometimes the "leftovers" get better that the originals.

[World Colonial]

Like good chili, sometimes the "leftovers" get better that the originals.

 

Yup, sometimes I have the same opinion about coins, especially given the price differences between different grades otherwise looking essentially identical.

[Nutmeg Coin]

For a coin to sell at the top levels it has to have all the positives and few of the negatives.

 

As for demand now and in the future boiling down to "type" aesthetics if I am reading that right, true but only to a certain extent. 1794 vs. 1795 FH coins are certainly an exception as are all transitionals that strike the imagination as noteworthy. Let's say you have numerous tiers of demand for "key date" coins, the lesser ones are on the wane (11D, 16D, 32D) which seasoned phenomenally wealthy collectors turn up their nose at. For them to be interesting a coin needs to have most of the key features and be out of the reach of the peasants.

[RWB]

Not sure about the chili if you season the collectors and not the beef, but there are those who put beans in chili, too....

[World Colonial]

For a coin to sell at the top levels it has to have all the positives and few of the negatives.

 

As for demand now and in the future boiling down to "type" aesthetics if I am reading that right, true but only to a certain extent. 1794 vs. 1795 FH coins are certainly an exception as are all transitionals that strike the imagination as noteworthy. Let's say you have numerous tiers of demand for "key date" coins, the lesser ones are on the wane (11D, 16D, 32D) which seasoned phenomenally wealthy collectors turn up their nose at. For them to be interesting a coin needs to have most of the key features and be out of the reach of the peasants.

 

My comments were primarily written from the standpoint of the prospective of the affluent non-collector who will either need to replace current collectors or compete with them to push prices higher.

 

For the collector, 1794 vs 1795 is significant because of first year of issue but also because the 1794 coins are much scarcer.

 

The 11-D QE, 16-D dime and 32-D quarter are all pedestrian coins whose perceived merits are inflated because most US collectors are completely priced out of the most preferred coins. This is evident from the prior thread covering supposed "trophy" coins. Outside of the US, coins with equivalent merits sell for nominal prices and aren't remotely thought in this manner to my knowledge because the best coins in other markets are within reach of many more buyers..

 

I agree there are numerous tiers of demand and it exists from the preference scale. The point I was making is that with the most elite US coins, I don't believe they are necessarily competing just against other coins but objects from other collectible fields.

 

The last time I checked, there were 91 coins in the "PCGS million dollar club" excluding die varities. Most such as the 1808 QE MS-65 which sold for $2.35MM in the Pogue sale aren't really that prominent, regardless that most US collectors think otherwise.

 

For the really affluent but future prospective collector, are they going to put together a collection which cumulatively can easily cost as much (if not more) as elite items from other fields? I am a lifelong collector but at current prices, if I had the financial capacity and inclination to participate at this level, I would also be looking elsewhere.

[Roblou270]

A great collection of extreme rarity and quality was put together over many years. Let's all enjoy the opportunity to see such fine specimens in one place for a brief moment. I know I am.