Something I hate about color

[dimefreak]

The grade bumps and forgiveness is out of control these days. And usually the seller trys to add a premium price to the grade. Therefore you have a coin that got a grade bump due to color and a price bump for current grade due to color.....

 

Here is a great example. I owned it when it was 67+ and it has a nice tasty scratch where the neck meets the face. Its now in a 68FB holder :-)

[Danye West]

The grade bumps and forgiveness is out of control these days. And usually the seller trys to add a premium price to the grade. Therefore you have a coin that got a grade bump due to color and a price bump for current grade due to color.....

 

Here is a great example. I owned it when it was 67+ and it has a nice tasty scratch where the neck meets the face. Its now in a 68FB holder :-)

That does not appear to be a 68FB. And what is going on with the rim, obverse, bottom?

[brg5658]

In my opinion, PCGS has gotten a little "wild" with their "eye appeal grade bumps" of toners.

 

I look through CoinFacts regularly, and in almost every series the highest graded example of most every coin pictured is wildly toned, and often the strike and luster are ho-hum.

 

Maybe they are grading the glamour shots instead of the actual coins?

[dimefreak]

The grade bumps and forgiveness is out of control these days. And usually the seller trys to add a premium price to the grade. Therefore you have a coin that got a grade bump due to color and a price bump for current grade due to color.....

 

Here is a great example. I owned it when it was 67+ and it has a nice tasty scratch where the neck meets the face. Its now in a 68FB holder :-)

That does not appear to be a 68FB. And what is going on with the rim, obverse, bottom?

 

I Dont recall any issues on the rim but then again its covered by prongs. However, I've seen this coin in hand and by my standards it shouldn't have graded. I would have been scared to send it because that scratch came after the toning. I'm guessing its a staple scratch. Whatever the case I see many in coinfacts as well but its hard to judge a pic. This one I can comment on because I've seen in hand. I will say the obverse luster was blazing and far better then the pic shows. Regardless a scratch is a scratch!!!

[dimefreak]

In my opinion, PCGS has gotten a little "wild" with their "eye appeal grade bumps" of toners.

 

I look through CoinFacts regularly, and in almost every series the highest graded example of most every coin pictured is wildly toned, and often the strike and luster are ho-hum.

 

Maybe they are grading the glamour shots instead of the actual coins?

 

Yep and then the sellers bump again . I'm not the type to do it, but sometimes I just want to explain to them that its already got a bump by the graders . Alas, I just pass by and leave the coin there.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

The car world has the same problem. An attractive paint job hides some flaws and if it is a popular color raises prices.

 

FWIW, I do notice this one pretty sharp Indian Head I have with very attractive miscolorization every time I flip open its page. Plus while there may be a number of MS whatever dimes there is only one with that coloring amd it is very attractive.

 

Honestly as much as I do like it visually I think miscoloration should cost a point in my loud obnoxious opinion. The minted color was not preserved. Having said that, once I have a great example of a xxMercury dime the next may as well be different and have some color just for curiosity's sake.

[BillJones]

I have a real simple solution to this problem. I don't pay big premiums for color coins, which means I almost never buy them. More than a few of them are "better coins through chemistry" anyway. I pay premiums for good general eye appeal. The people who are into color coins can enjoy them. I'm not your competition.

[Coinbuf]

You only have yourself and your fellow color bugs to blame for this wild swing. For the last several years you could/cannot go to any coin related forum without collectors gushing over toned coins, did you really think that the doctors/tpg's would not notice the demand?? Add in some gradflation and there you have it. While I do have some toned coins I prefer my coins as untarnished as possible, but I am in the minority of the current market.

[Matt_dac]

I'm part of the same minority then, I appreciate but have no interest in adding toned coins to my collection.

[AHFreak]

You only have yourself and your fellow color bugs to blame for this wild swing. For the last several years you could/cannot go to any coin related forum without collectors gushing over toned coins, did you really think that the doctors/tpg's would not notice the demand?? Add in some gradflation and there you have it. While I do have some toned coins I prefer my coins as untarnished as possible, but I am in the minority of the current market.

 

Are you lumping the 3PG'ers with the "doctors"? Even if you aren't, I don't see how they have much to do with your perceived problem... They aren't the ones making the color, nor are they all to excited about putting colored doctored/AT'd coins into legit holders.. from what I can see. Last I checked they make the same amount of money whether they determine its AT or NT...

[Coinbuf]

I'm part of the same minority then, I appreciate but have no interest in adding toned coins to my collection.

 

Some toned coins are attractive but imo the prices being paid by those actively seeking color are not sustainable, but that is only my opinion and time will tell if I'm right or wrong. Let's be clear about one thing, I could not care less what (or how much they pay) any collector or flipper buys, simply that the prices are much more than I would pay for coins that would in many cases be low-end (often beat-up and bag marked) or in the case of the coin the op showcased perhaps considered damaged if not for the color.

[Coinbuf]

You only have yourself and your fellow color bugs to blame for this wild swing. For the last several years you could/cannot go to any coin related forum without collectors gushing over toned coins, did you really think that the doctors/tpg's would not notice the demand?? Add in some gradflation and there you have it. While I do have some toned coins I prefer my coins as untarnished as possible, but I am in the minority of the current market.

 

Are you lumping the 3PG'ers with the "doctors"? Even if you aren't, I don't see how they have much to do with your perceived problem... They aren't the ones making the color, nor are they all to excited about putting colored doctored/AT'd coins into legit holders.. from what I can see. Last I checked they make the same amount of money whether they determine its AT or NT...

 

First off it's not my problem because I'm not paying moon money for color like some (you are in this group I suspect) are. What you or anyone else buys and pays is no concern of mine; I can however have my opinion of those buys when they are made public in today's social media just as you are free to have your opinion. I also never said that the tpg's are or ever have been involved in the making of toned coins, you made that leap all on your own.

 

The elimination of the guaranties by both major services is (as I see it) an admission that the tpg's can no longer tell what is true and real toning from the lab created/accelerated. Thus they now slab material deemed market acceptable, and in that way affect what the market considers acceptable. How many times have your read or heard a dealer or collector write/say that it must be ok because it slabbed cleanly.

 

I don't work for a tpg but as you seem to want to speak for them perhaps you can tell us just how you know that they are not all to excited about putting colored doctored/AT'd coins in problem free holders. Because it seems like not very many days can pass without a thread being started (or morphing into) about a slabbed coin and the AT/NT debate. As I said I don't work for one and I have no idea how the powers that be feel about market acceptable coins being slabbed.

 

I also find it quite interesting that you only show up when someone disparages toned coins or the market for such material; why so defensive? You have something to hide?

[Kurtdog]

I think I agree this NT/AT bull is getting old. How big a chump can you get to be? I think collectors are finding out.

[Danye West]

All I know is: I'm sending my toned coins to PCGS.

[dimefreak]

I'm not talking about doctors or anything along those lines.... try to follow along guys!

[AHFreak]

You only have yourself and your fellow color bugs to blame for this wild swing. For the last several years you could/cannot go to any coin related forum without collectors gushing over toned coins, did you really think that the doctors/tpg's would not notice the demand?? Add in some gradflation and there you have it. While I do have some toned coins I prefer my coins as untarnished as possible, but I am in the minority of the current market.

 

Are you lumping the 3PG'ers with the "doctors"? Even if you aren't, I don't see how they have much to do with your perceived problem... They aren't the ones making the color, nor are they all to excited about putting colored doctored/AT'd coins into legit holders.. from what I can see. Last I checked they make the same amount of money whether they determine its AT or NT...

 

First off it's not my problem because I'm not paying moon money for color like some (you are in this group I suspect) are. What you or anyone else buys and pays is no concern of mine; I can however have my opinion of those buys when they are made public in today's social media just as you are free to have your opinion. I also never said that the tpg's are or ever have been involved in the making of toned coins, you made that leap all on your own.

 

The elimination of the guaranties by both major services is (as I see it) an admission that the tpg's can no longer tell what is true and real toning from the lab created/accelerated. Thus they now slab material deemed market acceptable, and in that way affect what the market considers acceptable. How many times have your read or heard a dealer or collector write/say that it must be ok because it slabbed cleanly.

 

I don't work for a tpg but as you seem to want to speak for them perhaps you can tell us just how you know that they are not all to excited about putting colored doctored/AT'd coins in problem free holders. Because it seems like not very many days can pass without a thread being started (or morphing into) about a slabbed coin and the AT/NT debate. As I said I don't work for one and I have no idea how the powers that be feel about market acceptable coins being slabbed.

 

I also find it quite interesting that you only show up when someone disparages toned coins or the market for such material; why so defensive? You have something to hide?

 

 

I was simply asking a question based on your statement... U said, "did you really think that the doctors/tpg's would not notice the demand?" If I misunderstood what you said, then fine... I was just wondering what you meant when you said that about the 3PG's. what would the 3PG's notice, and how would that affect their actions moving forward in terms of color??? that's all I was wondering. again, please excuse me if I was unclear.

 

You seem to want to take this conversation into areas that are more appropriate via PM... feel free to do that anytime you would like.

 

 

[dimefreak]

I'm currently bid up to over $5k on a common date MS65 Morgan that don't end for about a month away. So I'd say toner market is very strong. Its in a OGH and appears properly graded which is nice!

[david3142]

Would that be lot 153? I love that coin! I think it's past my budget but I am definitely excited about that auction. Some amazing beauties!

[jom]

I'm currently bid up to over $5k on a common date MS65 Morgan that don't end for about a month away. So I'd say toner market is very strong. Its in a OGH and appears properly graded which is nice!

 

I think you should enjoy the coins and pay whatever you feel is comfortable. Some don't want to pay a premium for color. Others pay up for die varieties others not so much. That's fine too....to each their own.

 

As to "someday the toned market will crash" scenario: I've been hearing that for 15 years. If it crashes it will probably crash along with the rest of the coin market not just within it's "sector"....IMO. Who knows though....

 

jom

[dimefreak]

Would that be lot 153? I love that coin! I think it's past my budget but I am definitely excited about that auction. Some amazing beauties!

 

 

Pm sent

[jpcienkus]

Would that be lot 153? I love that coin! I think it's past my budget but I am definitely excited about that auction. Some amazing beauties!

 

There are lots of cool toners in that auction. I wouldn't mind adding a couple to my collection.

[coinman_23885]

I agree that the premium on top of the premium awarded by the TPG in the coin's grade can be a bit much. That's why I don't think toning should be used as an excuse to grade a coin one or two grades above technical grade as PCGS often does.

[jom]

I agree that the premium on top of the premium awarded by the TPG in the coin's grade can be a bit much. That's why I don't think toning should be used as an excuse to grade a coin one or two grades above technical grade as PCGS often does.

 

Yes, PCGS does have that tendency but I think many times the price paid will often be the same regardless....

 

jom

[bochiman]

It doesn't bother me.

It has burned me in the past, particularly at a coin show, where the lighting is less than optimal.

 

However, I've learned to look better, grade the coin as I would grade it (ignoring if in plastic or not...IF I know the series...and IF I don't, then I realize that as well and proceed accordingly in whichever way I feel most comfortable), and pay what I am willing to pay.

 

I have walked past/ignored/declined many toned coins I would have liked......due to either an issue or the price. If someone else wants it, they can have it.

 

It has stopped bothering me and I like many a coin with color, which it is nice and, imho, NT. If it is AT, imho, or QT, then any premium I would pay is out the door and gone and the coin is either bullion or play money for me if I were to buy it "for fun".

[jom]

It has stopped bothering me and I like many a coin with color, which it is nice and, imho, NT. If it is AT, imho, or QT, then any premium I would pay is out the door and gone and the coin is either bullion or play money for me if I were to buy it "for fun".

 

I've had similar experiences. There's a dealer at the Long Beach show who has wild colored coins who asks MOON money for most of them. The last time I went by he had some of those pretty Canadian silver dollars PCGS has graded and, IMO, are a bit questionable. However, I didn't care...I thought they were pretty (or "for fun" as you put it). But...what stopped me as the outrageous price he wanted. So I look at them....for enjoyment and then move on.

 

Buy what you like and part of that "like" should be the price you pay...make your own choice.

 

jom

[Crruisercharlie]

Mark I agree with your comment about losing a point for color. As you said-the mint luster was not maintained. It seems a contradiction that they grade on mint luster when there is none .

[brg5658]

It has stopped bothering me and I like many a coin with color, which it is nice and, imho, NT. If it is AT, imho, or QT, then any premium I would pay is out the door and gone and the coin is either bullion or play money for me if I were to buy it "for fun".

 

I've had similar experiences. There's a dealer at the Long Beach show who has wild colored coins who asks MOON money for most of them. The last time I went by he had some of those pretty Canadian silver dollars PCGS has graded and, IMO, are a bit questionable. However, I didn't care...I thought they were pretty (or "for fun" as you put it). But...what stopped me as the outrageous price he wanted. So I look at them....for enjoyment and then move on.

 

Buy what you like and part of that "like" should be the price you pay...make your own choice.

 

jom

 

Very well said. And, I think I know who that said dealer is.

[Danye West]

I made a mistake buying a franklin from him once. I'll have to wait a while for that one to be worth what I paid

[david3142]

So, what grade is the coin in the first picture?

[david3142]

Dimefreak, did you get my reply to your PM?