Certainly about time this happened.

[Afterword]

Will they surpass 37 pages? Keep checking back for the tantalizing answer to this must-know question!

 

I am optimistic. We are now talking about procedural ways to sabotage a case against him including standing and the statute of limitations. I think we might be on the verge of a break through. Stay tuned!

 

P.S. I see no harm in threads like this. They are instructive.

 

 

 

No more harm than there is in adding a little levity.

 

(I was right, Kurtdog, someone is watching! All bets are off!!!)

[dcarr]

So the total amount of currency extant is not diluted by these. In other words, one legal-tender dollar is "consumed" for every dollar coin over-strike.

The same could be said for if you put Bozo the Clown on these. That rationale, while it may be appealing to you, doesn't carry the day. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution gives the Congress the power to coin money, not the Moonlight Mint. There's your issue. This is the exclusive domain of the Congress.

 

It is true that only Congress has the power to "coin money"

(or to direct the coinage of money).

 

But it does not require Congressional authorization to legally (and privately) deface money, so long as the defacement isn't one of these:

 

1) Fraudulent activity.

 

2) Affixing commercial advertising to money.

 

3) Lightening coins (shaving metal off coins and then spending them at full face value).

 

4) Mass melting of cents and/or nickels.

 

[dcarr]

Will they surpass 37 pages? Keep checking back for the tantalizing answer to this must-know question!

 

I am optimistic. We are now talking about procedural ways to sabotage a case against him including standing and the statute of limitations. I think we might be on the verge of a break through. Stay tuned!

 

P.S. I see no harm in threads like this. They are instructive.

 

What "case" and who do you mean by "him" ?

 

[coinman_23885]

Will they surpass 37 pages? Keep checking back for the tantalizing answer to this must-know question!

 

I am optimistic. We are now talking about procedural ways to sabotage a case against him including standing and the statute of limitations. I think we might be on the verge of a break through. Stay tuned!

 

P.S. I see no harm in threads like this. They are instructive.

 

What "case" and who do you mean by "him" ?

 

It was meant more in a figurative rather than literal sense (at least at this point in time).

[coinman_23885]

So the total amount of currency extant is not diluted by these. In other words, one legal-tender dollar is "consumed" for every dollar coin over-strike.

The same could be said for if you put Bozo the Clown on these. That rationale, while it may be appealing to you, doesn't carry the day. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution gives the Congress the power to coin money, not the Moonlight Mint. There's your issue. This is the exclusive domain of the Congress.

 

It is true that only Congress has the power to "coin money"

(or to direct the coinage of money).

 

But it does not require Congressional authorization to legally (and privately) deface money, so long as the defacement isn't one of these:

 

1) Fraudulent activity.

 

2) Affixing commercial advertising to money.

 

3) Lightening coins (shaving metal off coins and then spending them at full face value).

 

4) Mass melting of cents and/or nickels.

 

But it is more than defacement or alteration when we create a completely new piece that resembles a genuine Mint product (other than the one as struck) using homemade dies with new legends, mottos, and inscriptions as found on genuine unmolested U.S. coins. And we still have the dies which were made de novo. To my knowledge, the coins were struck with non-genuine U.S. Mint dies. At best, the pieces are imitation numismatic pieces within the meaning of the HPA. At worst, I think they run or potentially run afoul of the Title 18 statutes. The original coin is substantially/effectively gone. And I see no meaningful distinction between that and a planchet I could make in my basement.

 

And to be clear, I find your "art" distinguishable from Hobo nickels, etc. You are not making it look less like a genuine Mint product, but more like a genuine Mint product other than the one intended. And when we strike non-genuine ultra rarities or coins in transitional years that could come off to a novice as pattern pieces, I think it crosses the line in my opinion.

 

I guess I am wasting my time. As Tonerguy correctly concluded several posts ago (and perhaps I should have heeded his post and RWB's), the only way this will ever be resolved is with a legal adjudication. Anyway, I truly do think I am done with this thread at this point.

[dcarr]

So the total amount of currency extant is not diluted by these. In other words, one legal-tender dollar is "consumed" for every dollar coin over-strike.

The same could be said for if you put Bozo the Clown on these. That rationale, while it may be appealing to you, doesn't carry the day. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution gives the Congress the power to coin money, not the Moonlight Mint. There's your issue. This is the exclusive domain of the Congress.

 

It is true that only Congress has the power to "coin money"

(or to direct the coinage of money).

 

But it does not require Congressional authorization to legally (and privately) deface money, so long as the defacement isn't one of these:

 

1) Fraudulent activity.

 

2) Affixing commercial advertising to money.

 

3) Lightening coins (shaving metal off coins and then spending them at full face value).

 

4) Mass melting of cents and/or nickels.

 

But it is more than defacement or alteration when we create a completely new piece that resembles a genuine Mint product (other than the one as struck) using homemade dies with new legends, mottos, and inscriptions as found on genuine unmolested U.S. coins. And we still have the dies which were made de novo. To my knowledge, the coins were struck with non-genuine U.S. Mint dies. At best, the pieces are imitation numismatic pieces within the meaning of the HPA. At worst, I think they run or potentially run afoul of the Title 18 statutes. The original coin is substantially/effectively gone. And I see no meaningful distinction between that and a planchet I could make in my basement.

 

And to be clear, I find your "art" distinguishable from Hobo nickels, etc. You are not making it look less like a genuine Mint product, but more like a genuine Mint product other than the one intended. And when we strike non-genuine ultra rarities or coins in transitional years that could come off to a novice as pattern pieces, I think it crosses the line in my opinion.

 

I guess I am wasting my time. As Tonerguy correctly concluded several posts ago (and perhaps I should have heeded his post and RWB's), the only way this will ever be resolved is with a legal adjudication. Anyway, I truly do think I am done with this thread at this point.

 

I'm not creating an "entirely new piece". That is the point.

The distinction between striking on your basement-made blank vs. using a genuine coin to strike on, is that your blank was never legal tender.

 

[Deerefan8420]

[greysoldier]

Hey Deerefan,

 

What happened to the horse? Perhaps if you beat him just a few more times.......

 

greysoldier

[Afterword]

All that remains is a battered and bloody equine corpse.

[Kurtdog]

So the total amount of currency extant is not diluted by these. In other words, one legal-tender dollar is "consumed" for every dollar coin over-strike.

The same could be said for if you put Bozo the Clown on these. That rationale, while it may be appealing to you, doesn't carry the day. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution gives the Congress the power to coin money, not the Moonlight Mint. There's your issue. This is the exclusive domain of the Congress.

It is true that only Congress has the power to "coin money"

(or to direct the coinage of money).

 

But it does not require Congressional authorization to legally (and privately) deface money, so long as the defacement isn't one of these:

 

1) Fraudulent activity.

 

2) Affixing commercial advertising to money.

 

3) Lightening coins (shaving metal off coins and then spending them at full face value).

 

4) Mass melting of cents and/or nickels.

Where are you getting that from? Let me simplify this for you. “Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin...in resemblance of...any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents...hall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.” 18 U.S.C. 485. Do you know why guys like you are still in business? Do you know why your operations aren't shut down? Prosecutorial discretion. That's all it is.

 

They don't want you, Mr. Carr. These products aren't circulating. They're staying out of circulation, in private collections. In a sense, they're competing with the U.S. Mint products; in particular, with the "special-issue" products. Evidently, the U.S. Mint is OK with that. You're not harming anything, you're correct, there, outside of encroaching on the U.S. Mint's exclusive domain. The U.S. Mint, for whatever reason, is OK with that, count your lucky stars. One doesn't infer from that reluctance to charge under this statute, however, they can't charge under it. Do we understand, now? I hope so. This thread is going around in circles, again. Good luck.

[dcarr]

So the total amount of currency extant is not diluted by these. In other words, one legal-tender dollar is "consumed" for every dollar coin over-strike.

The same could be said for if you put Bozo the Clown on these. That rationale, while it may be appealing to you, doesn't carry the day. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution gives the Congress the power to coin money, not the Moonlight Mint. There's your issue. This is the exclusive domain of the Congress.

It is true that only Congress has the power to "coin money"

(or to direct the coinage of money).

 

But it does not require Congressional authorization to legally (and privately) deface money, so long as the defacement isn't one of these:

 

1) Fraudulent activity.

 

2) Affixing commercial advertising to money.

 

3) Lightening coins (shaving metal off coins and then spending them at full face value).

 

4) Mass melting of cents and/or nickels.

Where are you getting that from? Let me simplify this for you. “Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin...in resemblance of...any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents...hall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.” 18 U.S.C. 485. Do you know why guys like you are still in business? Do you know why your operations aren't shut down? Prosecutorial discretion. That's all it is.

 

They don't want you, Mr. Carr. These products aren't circulating. They're staying out of circulation, in private collections. In a sense, they're competing with the U.S. Mint products; in particular, with the "special-issue" products. Evidently, the U.S. Mint is OK with that. You're not harming anything, you're correct, there, outside of encroaching on the U.S. Mint's exclusive domain. The U.S. Mint, for whatever reason, is OK with that, count your lucky stars. One doesn't infer from that reluctance to charge under this statute, however, they can't charge under it. Do we understand, now? I hope so. This thread is going around in circles, again. Good luck.

 

We are talking about different things here.

I'm talking about altering existing coins.

You are talking about entirely new counterfeit coins.

Its like comparing dyed edible oranges with plastic inedible apples.

 

PS:

Yes I think we're finally getting a little dizzy now ...