Machine Doubling or Shelf Doubling...

[LogPotato]

If many don't know here, I am a big Barber fan. Specifically the half series. There aren't too many varieties in the half series, so I am always on the look out for something, and trying to prove if it's worthwhile.

 

I was browsing coinfacts this morning, and ran across these two coins. They have the same date, but the date position is different on each one. The reverse hubs seem to be from different dies since one has die cracks in one area, and the other has die cracks in different places. Which means they are from different runs if I am thinking correctly. They look awfully similar though.

 

I am sort of split on MD or DD. I am still looking for other coins that may display this same type doubling in the same area. I am curious to hear other opinions. I just wish I had the coins in hand to inspect.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

They each appear to exhibit tripling.

 

The outer profile on each is very clearly Machine Doubling.

 

On the top picture, I'm inclined to believe that you are seeing Machine Doubling, and that is it.

 

The second one looks more like hub doubling, combined with machine doubling - but there is insufficient data to support that.

[johnny9434]

nice pics by the way

[RWB]

Look carefully at the edge of each outline. Usually, mechanical doubling will have visible streaks or slide marks perpendicular to the leading edge of the doubling.

 

To understand the cause, spin a quarter on a hard surface. Watch what happens when it slows. The last few "wiggles" are what happens to a mis-fed planchet and this is why metal flows in a shelf-like pattern. What you see in the quarter example is greatly exaggerated over what occurs in a coinage press.

 

(See From Mine to Mint for details and an illustration.)

[RWB]

PS: The large protruding defect is Charles Barber's idea of Miss Liberty's nose....not a chipped die.....

[LogPotato]

Thanks for the posts. I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling. I can definitely see the streaks.

 

RWB, maybe some day you can let go of the Ch. Barber hatred and embrace the coins. Although I doubt it!

[cpm9ball]

Thanks for the posts. I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling. I can definitely see the streaks.

 

RWB, maybe some day you can let go of the Ch. Barber hatred and embrace the coins. Although I doubt it!

 

Tater, I've never been a fan of Barber, either, but I'm just a nobody.

 

Chris

[LogPotato]

Thanks for the posts. I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling. I can definitely see the streaks.

 

RWB, maybe some day you can let go of the Ch. Barber hatred and embrace the coins. Although I doubt it!

 

Tater, I've never been a fan of Barber, either, but I'm just a nobody.

 

Chris

 

Don't worry, Chris, not many people are barber fans. It's going to be OK.

[cpm9ball]

Thanks for the posts. I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling. I can definitely see the streaks.

 

RWB, maybe some day you can let go of the Ch. Barber hatred and embrace the coins. Although I doubt it!

 

Tater, I've never been a fan of Barber, either, but I'm just a nobody.

 

Chris

 

Don't worry, Chris, not many people are barber fans. It's going to be OK.

 

Look at the bright side. The fewer Barber fans there are, the better it is for you.

 

Happy holidays!

 

Chris

[RWB]

Thanks for the posts. I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling. I can definitely see the streaks.

 

RWB, maybe some day you can let go of the Ch. Barber hatred and embrace the coins. Although I doubt it!

 

Who said I "hated Charles Barber?" Certainly not me. I happen to be one of those who helped show that the invective against Barber, especially relating to the Saint-Gaudens coinage and the Columbian Exposition medal, is largely unwarranted. Barber did what he could.

 

Objectively, George Morgan was the better technical and creative engraver, but when Barber was appointed in 1880, Morgan stopped pushing himself and never advanced further. Barber certainly tried to do better - although you can't tell it from the awful 1891/1892 designs. His PPIE $2.50 was excellent and better than most of the other designs.

 

Barber also was a tough critic of coinage production. On several occasions he condemned large quantities of gold and silver because it didn't meet his standards. He tried to prevent destruction of 19th century pattern hubs and master dies in 1910, and had little success - although he preserved the Saint-Gaudens $5 design master dies.

 

After he died, the overall quality of coinage deteriorated under Morgan's watch. Sinnock didn't do a lot better from August 1925 forward, either.

 

Barber had a fine collection of pattern coins, and he personally preserved specimens of most of the Saint-Gaudens pattern and experimental pieces -- coins that are an important part of American history - and also worth many millions today.

[RWB]

"I guess it's just a coincidence they are the same date with the same machine doubling."

 

Not a coincidence - it indicates a defect in the press...worn part, bad timing gear, excess lubricant, etc. There were probably dozens of nearly identical pieces struck before the defect was corrected.

 

There are some 1921 Peace dollars with fully doubled profile -- really interesting looking coins--- and all are mechanical doubling.