Very unhappy with PCGS!

[Danye West]

I sent in 3 coins for their normal grading...and it takes two months. I look at the coins, one of them, a rainbow toned cent, has strange discoloration spots, like flecks of water or something. In addition, areas which were once a bright green became a brown. Could the color have changed in their possession? What can I do?

[MarkFeld]

The coin might have changed on it's own.

What you can do is contact PCGS. It might or might not do any good.

[BillJones]

This is one of the problems with copper cents, especially the modern copper coated cents. They can be very unstable and can change color sometimes for no apparent reason. The rainbow color on the coin might have been an intermediate state in the ongoing toning process of the coin.

 

You can contact PCGS, but I doubt that they will do anything. I don't believe that they guarantee the copper of coins in the holder any longer, although this case the rapid change could give you some small hope.

[RWB]

Don't expect much response unless you can produce photos of the same coins before and after. All the companies accept whatever is sent to them and they do not restore/clean or otherwise alter the coins unless you ask (and pay) for it.

 

A good procedure is to photograph your coin submission on a neutral 18% gray background. That will establish color much better than any verbal description.....what you call "green" might be "brown" to another person under different lighting.

[TonerGuy]

Don't expect much response unless you can produce photos of the same coins before and after. All the companies accept whatever is sent to them and they do not restore/clean or otherwise alter the coins unless you ask (and pay) for it.

 

A good procedure is to photograph your coin submission on a neutral 18% gray background. That will establish color much better than any verbal description.....what you call "green" might be "brown" to another person under different lighting.

 

Always take photos of your raw submissions... I had this happen once - without photos - never again.

[Coinbuf]

A best I suspect that they might tell you to sent in for a review, at your cost.

[AHFreak]

I had this exact same thing happen only it wasn't a cent, it was a 1962 silver proof dime with double sided target rainbows.... I still do not know exactly what happened, and I walked away with a couple important insights:

 

1-take photographs of coins of this nature before you send them in to 3PG.

 

2-grade coins with the understanding that when you send your coins to 3PG, you are putting your coins in someone elses hands.... Anything can happen, and in the end, there isn't much that you will be able to do about whatever it is that may or may not happen anyways... For me, I walked away with the impression that while empathetic, the person I talked to at the 3PG, didn't really truly believe that what I was saying happened, really happened while in their possession. Can you imagine how often people are calling the 3PG's with all sorts of problems on submitted coins that "weren't there before"... Its just one of those things in life... part of the territory of playing the grading game unfortunately.

 

All that said, I feel like our hosts here do an amazing job in the overall big picture.

 

 

[Danye West]

Luckily I do have pictures. I will post them later and see what you all think.

[WingedLiberty1]

Fast color change is often indicative of artificial toning.

 

I am sure that PCGS did nothing to the coin to make it change

 

[coinman_23885]

Fast color change is often indicative of artificial toning.

 

I am sure that PCGS did nothing to the coin to make it change

 

+ 1.

 

This is certainly a possibility.

[MarkFeld]

Fast color change is often indicative of artificial toning.

 

I am sure that PCGS did nothing to the coin to make it change

 

Fast color change is also often indicative of a naturally toned (or untoned) coin that reacts with it's environment. And, while I don't necessarily think you are doing so, based on the scenario presented, there is no reason to assume the coin was artificially toned.

[Raisethis2]

I'd assume that he noticed the changed color and spots upon the coins return. Since he didn't indicate it was returned in a body bag, that implies it got a numeric grade.

 

If it was AT and got a grade either there's hope for everyone else with questionable colored coins or they slipped up.

 

The taking photos idea seems solid. I'd recommend it.

[asdfgh]

I have had several proofs over the years turn up with a spot of them. In the middle of the spot one can see a microscopic piece of crud. It believe they came from the mint this way. Nothing one can do about it. I try not to get too upset over it, however it is difficult.

 

[Danye West]

I had it in a flip for about 5 months. It had light spots. Graded straight. After I got it back the whole coin was darker. Thanks for the responses.

[joeyuk]

Don't expect much response unless you can produce photos of the same coins before and after. All the companies accept whatever is sent to them and they do not restore/clean or otherwise alter the coins unless you ask (and pay) for it.

 

A good procedure is to photograph your coin submission on a neutral 18% gray background. That will establish color much better than any verbal description.....what you call "green" might be "brown" to another person under different lighting.

 

 

Before and after pics of 1879-CC Morgan. I sent it in only to be graded. The most noticable change is in the highlighted area.

 

[RWB]

Which is "after?"

 

If only change is the small crescent, I'd suspect random debris.

[jpcienkus]

joeyuk, interesting that "debris" is no longer on the coin. All the other marks seem to line up so I think it's the same coin.

[Coindude]

I know I've talked to a grader before that stated that he used canned air to blow the coins off to make sure there was no foreign material left. I wonder if that was just a piece of foreign material that fell off or got blown off?

[jpcienkus]

I know I've talked to a grader before that stated that he used canned air to blow the coins off to make sure there was no foreign material left. I wonder if that was just a piece of foreign material that fell off or got blown off?

 

Interesting re; canned air.

 

Someone was remarking earlier this year about the hazards of using this on coins as there are chemicals in the can that they wouldn't want on their coins surface.

[physics-fan3.14]

I know I've talked to a grader before that stated that he used canned air to blow the coins off to make sure there was no foreign material left. I wonder if that was just a piece of foreign material that fell off or got blown off?

 

Interesting re; canned air.

 

Someone was remarking earlier this year about the hazards of using this on coins as there are chemicals in the can that they wouldn't want on their coins surface.

 

I've used canned air on every single raw coin I've handled for the last fifteen years and have never noticed an adverse effect due to it.

 

The only way you're going to get the chemicals out is if you tip it upside down like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

[joeyuk]

The before pic is on the left and after on the right. I reposted the same pic below it without the highlighting. I think they used acetone to be sure it was not an added mintmark as on '79's the mint mark is not usually centered. I don't realy mind because I think it looks better now. I only posted it because to say they do nothing to it unless you tell them to is simply an incorrect statement.

[RWB]

Commercial grading places should use compressed air that is filtered and dehumidified. Canned air is too expensive for routine use.

[jpcienkus]

I know I've talked to a grader before that stated that he used canned air to blow the coins off to make sure there was no foreign material left. I wonder if that was just a piece of foreign material that fell off or got blown off?

 

Interesting re; canned air.

 

Someone was remarking earlier this year about the hazards of using this on coins as there are chemicals in the can that they wouldn't want on their coins surface.

 

I've used canned air on every single raw coin I've handled for the last fifteen years and have never noticed an adverse effect due to it.

 

The only way you're going to get the chemicals out is if you tip it upside down like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

 

Cool! I can't remember who was mentioning it. I'm glad to hear it hasn't caused you any problems.

[coinman_23885]

I know I've talked to a grader before that stated that he used canned air to blow the coins off to make sure there was no foreign material left. I wonder if that was just a piece of foreign material that fell off or got blown off?

 

Interesting re; canned air.

 

Someone was remarking earlier this year about the hazards of using this on coins as there are chemicals in the can that they wouldn't want on their coins surface.

 

I was the one who said that I would never use it on my coins. Most canned air uses alkyl halide compounds as propellants and these are highly reactive chemically. While it is true that reaction with coinage metals themselves is unlikely, side reactions with the air or any organic substances that might be on the coin are theoretically possible. Therefore, I said that I avoid using it.

 

In response to my post, Condor101 also brought up an interesting point about condensation forming potentially on the coins as well.

 

[coinman_23885]

Commercial grading places should use compressed air that is filtered and dehumidified. Canned air is too expensive for routine use.

 

+1, and this is a key distinction IMO.

[bochiman]

Luckily I do have pictures. I will post them later and see what you all think.

 

Waiting for the pictures....

 

 

I do know that I purchased, about 7 years ago, a couple of toned mercs in 2x2. Really cool looking. Was keeping them in the 2x2s and then decided to open them up and was playing with the idea of submitting. I am not a heavy submitter, so I hemmed, and hawed, and waiting.

 

A few months later, as I was playing with the coins in my mind again and finalizing the submission, I looked at them again. One of them was seriously subdued with the toning. I am pretty sure they are NT. I am also pretty sure they were in the 2x2s for quite awhile.

 

Opening them up, they did react with the air and the toning changed. Only had that happen to a few coins...these 2 (one more than the other) and a proof coin that was sent to my son by a forum member on the PCGS boards...when I opened it up to put in a self-slab holder, for present-ability, I saw a rapid change occur on that one. I trust that member enough that when he told me the coin was from a group where the set was toned and he submitted the others, to believe they were NT.

 

So, toning can react, and in a relatively short time, with the simple air we breathe when their encasement is removed/changed.

 

Not saying what did/didn't happen, but just giving an idea on what could happen.

[ThosArch-migration]

i had a pcgs 1917 ms64 buffalo nickel with a human hair in the slab along with the coin -- a nice bonus !

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

I sent in 3 coins for their normal grading...and it takes two months.

PCGS submissions are extremely slow for me too. I submitted a Roosevelt dime to PCGS that was already graded by them for variety designation...and it took nearly 3 months to get back to me. I submitted another PCGS-graded dime to them for variety designation right after the Baltimore show in November, and have yet to get it back. Does anyone know why they are so slow?

EDITED TO ADD: Ok. So just a few hours after making this post, my local coin shop called me and told me the coin just came back:

 

[braddick]

^

Dang, I didn't even know that variety existed.

How did you spot it?

 

You don't need to be specific, as it is none of my business, but in general terms, are they valuable and is there a strong collector base?

[RWB]

FWIW, I've long advocated that authentication companies take a clean room approach to their work including positive filtered ventilation and prohibition of food and drink in any area where non-slabbed coins are handled....No luck getting through to the corporate types.