"Coin Talk" and the ANA suit

[TonerGuy]

 

I think those numbers are unrealistic for the average lawsuit, although they may be accurate in complex litigation where several expert witnesses might be required - think high risk criminal trials, extreme medical malpractice/personal injury suits, large corporate suits, certain biotech/patent/intellectual property infringement suits, etc.

 

Im not sure where you practice but those are pretty standard estimates for a major metropolitan city. Attorney rates are usually $500 to $1000 an hour where I am located.

 

Complex litigation strips those numbers and has no top end...

 

Here are numbers from a recent study of simple motor vehicle accident cases... it really doesnt get any simpler than that - even at a lowly $375 per hour the case will rack up over $50,000 in fees.

 

I even think the time estimates are very conservative. Discovery usually requires far more than 25 hours. Two depositions and you're over 25 hours. Throw in written discovery and that 25 hours becomes 50 hours easily.

 

 

[RWB]

Those fees and hours might be meaningful in the middle of Iowa, but they are hugely unrealistic for any major city or suburban area.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I had a lawyer on a defense suit who billed me in fractional hour increments on a case at a rate under $200 an hour. Some people go with "Legal Shield" as a form of legal insurance, around $40 a month, with hours of monthly free consultations available and there are alternatives to their MLM system that are also low cost. Once you end up in substantial litigation, costs skyrocket as others here have shown.

 

There are two major "businesses" in Connecticut that obnoxiously advertise their services to people driving on the interstate highway; ambulance chasers like Haymond (Haman?) and the porn palaces, not much difference in character between them IMO.

[coinman_23885]

 

I think those numbers are unrealistic for the average lawsuit, although they may be accurate in complex litigation where several expert witnesses might be required - think high risk criminal trials, extreme medical malpractice/personal injury suits, large corporate suits, certain biotech/patent/intellectual property infringement suits, etc.

 

Im not sure where you practice but those are pretty standard estimates for a major metropolitan city. Attorney rates are usually $500 to $1000 an hour where I am located...

 

If you reread my original reply, you will see that I clearly mentioned exceptions, to include personal injury suits. The data you have cited is for personal injury suits. These cases often have facts that are less than clear cut or are highly technical. For instance, expert witnesses might required to establish the nature of the plaintiff's injury and the amount of compensatory damages. Accident reconstruction and corresponding experts might be needed for more extreme cases to establish fault. All of this requires time from the firm to prepare for trial and discovery. None of that is disputed. Cases with technicalities in law or fact, or where the facts are less clear are more complex than the average law suit filed in this country. Most litigants don't have that much money to spend on litigation. To bring this within the scope of this thread, I doubt there will be may, if any, experts required in the OP's case, and I would expect the cost to be much less. Most suits filed are like this.

 

Edited: Reference to OP of another thread with a contract suit.

[brg5658]

The only people who benefit in the long run from most forms of arbitration are the lawyers.

 

Lawyers benefit a lot less from arbitration. Typical fees for arbitration $10-$25,000.

 

For a trial in state court - $45,000 to $100,000 and in federal court $100,000+

 

Greedy lawyers dont like arbitration either.

 

Right, but arbitration is usually less work and requires less time, so those dollar differences are likely proportional to the actual amount of time spent.

 

In the end, what I should have said (wrote) was:

 

"The people who benefit the most from any type of litigation are the lawyers."

 

There are likely many people who get sucked into legal careers by way of the earning ($$$) potential -- just as there are similar people who get sucked into medicine for that reason. But, the preponderance of people in those careers for the money alone is what is most disturbing.

[TonerGuy]

 

I think those numbers are unrealistic for the average lawsuit, although they may be accurate in complex litigation where several expert witnesses might be required - think high risk criminal trials, extreme medical malpractice/personal injury suits, large corporate suits, certain biotech/patent/intellectual property infringement suits, etc.

 

Im not sure where you practice but those are pretty standard estimates for a major metropolitan city. Attorney rates are usually $500 to $1000 an hour where I am located...

 

If you reread my original reply, you will see that I clearly mentioned exceptions, to include personal injury suits. The data you have cited is for personal injury suits. These cases often have facts that are less than clear cut or are highly technical. For instance, expert witnesses might required to establish the nature of the plaintiff's injury and the amount of compensatory damages. Accident reconstruction and corresponding experts might be needed for more extreme cases to establish fault. All of this requires time from the firm to prepare for trial and discovery. None of that is disputed. Cases with technicalities in law or fact, or where the facts are less clear are more complex than the average law suit filed in this country. Most litigants don't have that much money to spend on litigation. To bring this within the scope of this thread, I doubt there will be may, if any, experts required in the OP's case, and I would expect the cost to be little. Most law suits filed in this country are more like the OP's case or are even lower in stakes.

 

And to answer the other stuff, yes there are regional variations and firm billing practices make a difference. I still think $45,000 - $50,000 in expenses for a plain vanilla contract suit with a claim of damages in the low six figures (like most suits filed) is unrealistic.

 

MVA accidents are far from complex. If you think MVA accident trials are complex thats pretty funny. Thats about as basic as it gets. In Los Angeles we have a court house devoted to just complex litigation and I can guaranty you that there are no MVA cases heard in that court house by any of the judges. Its all class action cases and multiple defendant litigation situations. Those are complex cases. Insurance defense isnt exactly the brain surgery of litigation.

 

By the way - where do you practice ? And if you're handling litigation cases for less than $45,000 I can refer some clients out that are looking for some inexpensive legal work.

[coinman_23885]

There are varying degrees of complexity. Complex is short hand for more involved; that's it. In any event, arguing about litigation costs is pretty pointless, so this will be my last comment to the thread unless it is in response to new developments in the ANA suit.

 

And to answer your questions: I no longer work in the legal field in any capacity. I left with no intentions of ever going back. While I enjoy law from an intellectual and theoretical standpoint, I actually hate the day to day annoyances and headaches associated with a legal practice. I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

[Conder101]

I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

I wonder if you will find that to be any better.

[TonerGuy]

While I enjoy law from an intellectual and theoretical standpoint, I actually hate the day to day annoyances and headaches associated with a legal practice. I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

 

Excellet! The world can always use more doctors.

 

And good luck with dealing with insurance companies and medical billing companies. Most of the doctors I know are just as frustrated with those issues as the lawyers I know that are frustrated with annoying clients and the daily grind of litigation.

[brg5658]

I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

I wonder if you will find that to be any better.

 

The medical field is no better, and in certain ways worse, than the legal field. Both of these areas hinge on exorbitant salaries for half-baked opinions.

 

The only medical doctors I have genuine respect for are surgeons (who actually physically fix problems) and medical researchers (who actually have to use their brains). Even specialists in very high paying fields like Cardiology or Neurology are not really doing anything novel or complicated. They use other areas of science (like blood tests, imaging, EKG, etc.) to rule-out certain conditions -- but they are usually literally working from a -script or rubrics. Of course the people who actually do the laboratory work, radiologists, echocardiographers, etc., make peanuts and work harder than the physicians. Most physicians are replaceable by an online checklist of tests and subsequent monitored prescribing of medications.

 

Yes, medical residents for their 4-5 years after medical school are over-worked -- but once a person is on staff as a full-permission physician, it's a hugely cushy job. The 4-5 years of "running the gauntlet" for residents is no justification for the later salaries paid for a lifetime. Don't even get me started on the corruption of the American Medical Association and their control of the field by limiting medical school admissions. If you control the supply of physicians (which is exactly what the AMA does), then of course you directly control the supply/demand ratio and salaries. And, let's be honest -- and M.D. is a glorified master's degree (2 years of real academic course work beyond a Bachelor's degree) with 6-8 years of "apprenticeship" thereafter before you are given full rights.

 

I have many friends who are physicians in Europe (namely, the UK and Italy). Medical doctors in those countries (and most of the EU) make a good living wage -- well above the average and they are by no means poor -- but salaries are on par with engineers and other people with professional degrees. Medical care in the UK, Italy, France, Germany, and many other EU countries is just as good if not better than that in the USA -- and people in those countries live just as long (or longer) than people in the USA.

 

The majority of the healthcare issues in the USA can be traced back to two weaved together issues: 1) the corrupt private medical insurance industry, and 2) exorbitant salaries of physicians. The problem is that the two issues are currently inextricably connected so that it's a chicken/egg debate. BOTH need to be fixed to fix the problem. If you fix only one, the other will just blossom out of control.

 

OK, stepping down off my soap box...

 

END RANT

[Hard Times]

 

The majority of the healthcare issues in the USA can be traced back to two weaved together issues: 1) the corrupt private medical insurance industry, and 2) exorbitant salaries of physicians. The problem is that the two issues are currently inextricably connected so that it's a chicken/egg debate. BOTH need to be fixed to fix the problem. If you fix only one, the other will just blossom out of control.

 

OK, stepping down off my soap box...

 

END RANT

 

I agree, and the only way to solve the problem is to get rid of the private medical insurance industry, but our economy is so entwined with these wonderful folks such that removing this system will do serious damage to our economy by going to a better, first world, single source (i.e. federal govt.) system. We are in one of those Catch 22 situations and we are all going to pay for it.....

 

Best, HT

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

I wonder if you will find that to be any better.

 

The medical field is no better, and in certain ways worse, than the legal field. Both of these areas hinge on exorbitant salaries for half-baked opinions.

 

The only medical doctors I have genuine respect for are surgeons (who actually physically fix problems) and medical researchers (who actually have to use their brains). Even specialists in very high paying fields like Cardiology or Neurology are not really doing anything novel or complicated. They use other areas of science (like blood tests, imaging, EKG, etc.) to rule-out certain conditions -- but they are usually literally working from a -script or rubrics. Of course the people who actually do the laboratory work, radiologists, echocardiographers, etc., make peanuts and work harder than the physicians. Most physicians are replaceable by an online checklist of tests and subsequent monitored prescribing of medications.

 

Yes, medical residents for their 4-5 years after medical school are over-worked -- but once a person is on staff as a full-permission physician, it's a hugely cushy job. The 4-5 years of "running the gauntlet" for residents is no justification for the later salaries paid for a lifetime. Don't even get me started on the corruption of the American Medical Association and their control of the field by limiting medical school admissions. If you control the supply of physicians (which is exactly what the AMA does), then of course you directly control the supply/demand ratio and salaries. And, let's be honest -- and M.D. is a glorified master's degree (2 years of real academic course work beyond a Bachelor's degree) with 6-8 years of "apprenticeship" thereafter before you are given full rights.

 

I have many friends who are physicians in Europe (namely, the UK and Italy). Medical doctors in those countries (and most of the EU) make a good living wage -- well above the average and they are by no means poor -- but salaries are on par with engineers and other people with professional degrees. Medical care in the UK, Italy, France, Germany, and many other EU countries is just as good if not better than that in the USA -- and people in those countries live just as long (or longer) than people in the USA.

 

The majority of the healthcare issues in the USA can be traced back to two weaved together issues: 1) the corrupt private medical insurance industry, and 2) exorbitant salaries of physicians. The problem is that the two issues are currently inextricably connected so that it's a chicken/egg debate. BOTH need to be fixed to fix the problem. If you fix only one, the other will just blossom out of control.

 

OK, stepping down off my soap box...

 

END RANT

 

That is an incredible indictment of the medical Practitioner and Medical care in the U.S., especially as it exists today, and so very incorrect on so many levels.

 

However, you are certainly entitled to, and have the Right to, express your opinion.

[brg5658]

That is an incredible indictment of the medical Practitioner and Medical care in the U.S., especially as it exists today, and so very incorrect on so many levels.

 

However, you are certainly entitled to, and have the Right to, express your opinion.

 

Provide me an example of how what I am stating is incorrect. I'm oh-so-dying to hear...

 

The only more laughable areas of the work force and pay-disparities than those of law and medicine are the CEO salaries of not-for-profit companies. Shall we go there also?

 

[coinman_23885]

 

So, with regards to Coin Talk, some members (in the linked threads - not here) have posted that certain detailed references of the events or alleged events that transpired were posted publicly, but have since been deleted in some instances. Did anyone save those? If so, would someone be willing to share the content with me by PM? I am interested in seeing what happens with this case, and I wonder what effects the recent turmoil within the ANA will have on that organization's future.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

That is an incredible indictment of the medical Practitioner and Medical care in the U.S., especially as it exists today, and so very incorrect on so many levels.

 

However, you are certainly entitled to, and have the Right to, express your opinion.

 

Provide me an example of how what I am stating is incorrect. I'm oh-so-dying to hear...

 

The only more laughable areas of the work force and pay-disparities than those of law and medicine are the CEO salaries of not-for-profit companies. Shall we go there also?

 

I see no reason to do so, because as I mentioned, you have every Right to an opinion, as do I.

 

I will, in the spirit of Good Will, refer you to ICD 9 and ICD 10, and CPT coding.

It may help to assuage the harm done to you by the exorbitant over - charging Physicians. You may also find some value in contacting a company such as PICA, and exploring Insurance costs for Physicians, Nurses, and PAs, and the basis of the costs.

 

It will be very enlightening for you to research the Super Group Model, and the Cash Model, in Medicine.

 

It might also be very interesting to read up on the Hospitalist, and what they are and what they do and in place of who and what it means to Healthcare.

 

Lastly, I would recommend delving into ACO structure, how it relates to ACA, and how it relates to Meaningful Use.

[Kurtdog]

And to answer your questions: I no longer work in the legal field in any capacity. I left with no intentions of ever going back. While I enjoy law from an intellectual and theoretical standpoint, I actually hate the day to day annoyances and headaches associated with a legal practice. I am, instead, in the process of applying to medical school.

Do you mean you threw in your license?

[brg5658]

That is an incredible indictment of the medical Practitioner and Medical care in the U.S., especially as it exists today, and so very incorrect on so many levels.

 

However, you are certainly entitled to, and have the Right to, express your opinion.

 

Provide me an example of how what I am stating is incorrect. I'm oh-so-dying to hear...

 

The only more laughable areas of the work force and pay-disparities than those of law and medicine are the CEO salaries of not-for-profit companies. Shall we go there also?

 

I see no reason to do so, because as I mentioned, you have every Right to an opinion, as do I.

 

I will, in the spirit of Good Will, refer you to ICD 9 and ICD 10, and CPT coding.

It may help to assuage the harm done to you by the exorbitant over - charging Physicians. You may also find some value in contacting a company such as PICA, and exploring Insurance costs for Physicians, Nurses, and PAs, and the basis of the costs.

 

It will be very enlightening for you to research the Super Group Model, and the Cash Model, in Medicine.

 

It might also be very interesting to read up on the Hospitalist, and what they are and what they do and in place of who and what it means to Healthcare.

 

Lastly, I would recommend delving into ACO structure, how it relates to ACA, and how it relates to Meaningful Use.

 

John, I have worked at the largest hospital in the USA for the past 11 years. I work with ICD-9, ICD-10, and CPT codes on a daily basis, and I'm quite familiar with the reimbursement (nightmare) system. Most of this is to comply with a splintered, inconsistent, and broken private medical insurance system in the USA.

 

Malpractice insurance in the USA is yet another can of worms -- as again, that all goes back to frivolous lawsuits, greed, and yet another corrupt area. I am not arguing that physicians are completely unnecessary, but most are massively overpaid for their set of skills. I've also heard the whole "physicians have large amounts of medical school debt" argument also, and it just doesn't hold water. At the salaries physicians make, especially specialists, the cost of expensive medical school can be offset in 2-3 years of regular practice -- 5 years max.

 

What about people with PhDs in scientific fields (real doctoral degrees) that take 5-7 years to complete . Many with PhDs in chemistry, physics, mathematics, engineering, etc., go on to become faculty at universities, and make less than someone in private industry with a master's degree. I know people with PhDs in mathematics that will be paying off school loans until age 60. Priorities are just very askew.

 

I'm pro social medicine and pro public education through doctoral degree. I think those are two "free enterprise" mis-steps the USA system has adopted that will continue to leave us behind the rest of the world.

 

Just my rambling opinions though...

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

 

So, with regards to Coin Talk, some members (in the linked threads - not here) have posted that certain detailed references of the events or alleged events that transpired were posted publicly, but have since been deleted in some instances. Did anyone save those? If so, would someone be willing to share the content with me by PM? I am interested in seeing what happens with this case, and I wonder what effects the recent turmoil within the ANA will have on that organization's future.

 

 

Anyone?

[RWB]

An honorable decision.