Guess the grade.

[Afterword]

NGC has determined this 1924 to be UNC Details Artificial Toning. I am interested in opinions as to the grade of this coin, if anyone is willing.

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

The coin looks like an MS64 with artificial color.

[AHFreak]

So hard to tell in a pic. One thing that I would be aware of, is that it seems to me like the NGC details, "artificial toning" coins I have seen, is not always about the "toning" but what is underneath the toning... It might be hard under the plastic adding that extra reflection, but get a good light, and see what you can see going on under the toning... often the toning on coins like this was put there to hide or cover something.. could be stripped luster due to one to many dips.. could be damage or attempted repairs that someone tried covering up. could be anything really... see if you can see the surface of the coin, under the toning. maybe that will tell you something.

 

 

As far as the toning itself, In my inexperienced opinion, it doesn't look "natural". Very dark and dull... which from what I have read is a sign of AT.

 

 

Just my two cents....

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

So hard to tell in a pic. One thing that I would be aware of, is that it seems to me like the NGC details, "artificial toning" coins I have seen, is not always about the "toning" but what is underneath the toning... It might be hard under the plastic adding that extra reflection, but get a good light, and see what you can see going on under the toning... often the toning on coins like this was put there to hide or cover something.. could be stripped luster due to one to many dips.. could be damage or attempted repairs that someone tried covering up. could be anything really... see if you can see the surface of the coin, under the toning. maybe that will tell you something.

 

 

As far as the toning itself, In my inexperienced opinion, it doesn't look "natural". Very dark and dull... which from what I have read is a sign of AT.

 

 

Just my two cents....

 

 

 

I think "very dark and dull" toning is no more of an indication of it being artificial than of it being natural.

[Afterword]

I accept NGC's determination regarding the toning.

 

 

Edited to add:I just realized that I placed this thread on the wrong forum - my apologies.

[MarkFeld]

I accept NGC's determination regarding the toning.

 

If that was dirceted to me, I agree with NGC's assessment. My point in my previous post was that "very dark and dull" toning isn't necessarily an indication of it being artificial.

[Afterword]

"If that was dirceted to me, I agree with NGC's assessment. My point in my previous post was that "very dark and dull" toning isn't necessarily an indication of it being artificial."

 

 

 

 

No, it was not directed to you, Mark. I wanted to make it clear that I am only interested in the grade. I believe, as you, that it is MS64, but on another thread where I posted pictures of this coin "cleaned" was mentioned and I wanted to get other opinions.

[Coinbuf]

I am inclined to say it might be AU if the toning were removed, I say this because it looks like lite rub on the eagle's head and wings on the rev.

[MarkFeld]

"If that was dirceted to me, I agree with NGC's assessment. My point in my previous post was that "very dark and dull" toning isn't necessarily an indication of it being artificial."

 

 

 

 

No, it was not directed to you, Mark. I wanted to make it clear that I am only interested in the grade. I believe, as you, that it is MS64, but on another thread where I posted pictures of this coin "cleaned" was mentioned and I wanted to get other opinions.

 

Thanks. Sometimes toning is added to hide cleaning, among other problems. But if the coin has been cleaned, I can't tell from the images.

[A.Phillips]

 

 

As far as the toning itself, In my inexperienced opinion, it doesn't look "natural". Very dark and dull... which from what I have read is a sign of AT.

 

 

 

The dark toned on coin doesn't mean artificial toning.

 

 

It's just depending on the, in general, color pattern on coins to determine the AT, NT, or QT.

[AHFreak]

Yes, I could have worded that a little better.... let me try again...

 

 

one of the many bits I have read about the subject of AT/NT coins, suggests that while it is only one of many factors to consider, dull and dark toning can be a sign of AT. Did not mean to suggest that all dark and dull toning should be considered AT.

 

Thanks for the critique, this is why I come here.. to learn, and share what I have learned...

[AHFreak]

So here is a question I have regarding this coin, or others like it.. (Mr.Feld, I am looking for your thoughts)....

 

so, on this coin, what are the chances that the toning was put there for a reason other than to "hide or cover" a problem or problems?

 

Suppose you or any professional "eye" inspected this coin carefully, wouldn't it be possible to establish with some degree of confidence whether or not there are "problems" being hid/covered? At least to be able to have an idea one way or another on what this coin will be after a bath to remove the toning? I guess what I am wondering, is at what point if any, would you want to look at a coin like this, and think about removing the toning that is preventing said coin from being a coin worthy of a legit grade?

 

-Maybe it isn't worth all that for a coin like this... but if not, lets then assume that it is a valuable coin that we are talking about.. I would think it would make sense to look at it with that thought process...

 

 

 

Just my curiosity... wondering what the thoughts are of those of you who have the insight on the subject....

[orifdoc]

My thoughts are these........

 

If you want a problem-free coin, buy a problem-free coin. Let the people with deep pockets and years of experience decide what should be conserved, un-doctored, or otherwise messed with.

 

If you're looking for a diamond in the rough, it might be a lengthy search. In this case I doubt you'd end up with a nice coin after a dip.

 

I'm no expert in this area (even ignorant, you could say), but I'm guessing this coin showed signs of surface damage or cleaning. In really good light you can usually see hairlines through coins with this much toning. Loss of surface frost is harder to see, but you can usually tell if you look closely. On a really expensive coin it might help to look at it under water or submerged in acetone. Light does funny things and this can sometimes show damage or luster you can't see otherwise.

 

Also, ask yourself why would someone play with a really valuable coin? There's plenty of risk involved and this particular coin isn't done well enough to fool the graders.

[Afterword]

This is amusing stuff, a little off topic, but amusing just the same.

[MarkFeld]

So here is a question I have regarding this coin, or others like it.. (Mr.Feld, I am looking for your thoughts)....

 

so, on this coin, what are the chances that the toning was put there for a reason other than to "hide or cover" a problem or problems?

 

Suppose you or any professional "eye" inspected this coin carefully, wouldn't it be possible to establish with some degree of confidence whether or not there are "problems" being hid/covered? At least to be able to have an idea one way or another on what this coin will be after a bath to remove the toning? I guess what I am wondering, is at what point if any, would you want to look at a coin like this, and think about removing the toning that is preventing said coin from being a coin worthy of a legit grade?

 

-Maybe it isn't worth all that for a coin like this... but if not, lets then assume that it is a valuable coin that we are talking about.. I would think it would make sense to look at it with that thought process...

 

 

 

Just my curiosity... wondering what the thoughts are of those of you who have the insight on the subject....

 

 

 

Toning is typically applied in order to increase the value of the coin, by masking problems and/or adding to its eye-appeal/attractiveness.

 

Grading companies make judgment calls on a daily basis regarding what they expect the surfaces of a toned coin look like (beneath the toning).

 

Sometimes cleaning, marks and other problems are readily apparent, while other times, not. I have seen various dipped coins look shockingly better or worse than I would have imagined, having seen them, both prior to and after the dipping.

 

The surfaces of some coins have been ruined prior to the addition of artificial toning. That might or might not be detectable prior to a dipping. Depending on its nature, the removal of the artificial toning might result in an unsightly appearance.

 

Thus, many coins will look fine and benefit from the removal of toning which has been deemed artificial, but many others will look terrible. And it’s by no means a given, what the end result will be.

 

[AHFreak]

My thoughts are these........

 

If you want a problem-free coin, buy a problem-free coin. Let the people with deep pockets and years of experience decide what should be conserved, un-doctored, or otherwise messed with.

 

If you're looking for a diamond in the rough, it might be a lengthy search. In this case I doubt you'd end up with a nice coin after a dip.

 

I'm no expert in this area (even ignorant, you could say), but I'm guessing this coin showed signs of surface damage or cleaning. In really good light you can usually see hairlines through coins with this much toning. Loss of surface frost is harder to see, but you can usually tell if you look closely. On a really expensive coin it might help to look at it under water or submerged in acetone. Light does funny things and this can sometimes show damage or luster you can't see otherwise.

 

Also, ask yourself why would someone play with a really valuable coin? There's plenty of risk involved and this particular coin isn't done well enough to fool the graders.

 

 

Do you feel better now? I hope so, because your "rant" was more for you than anyone else... IMO. I know that it did nothing to add or contribute, let alone answer my question...

 

 

And, to your question about "who would play with a really valuable coin?" I WOULD......

-especially, if by "playing with" you mean removing some ugly toning or something like that.... seriously, your entire comment is completely out of nowhere..

[MarkFeld]

My thoughts are these........

 

If you want a problem-free coin, buy a problem-free coin. Let the people with deep pockets and years of experience decide what should be conserved, un-doctored, or otherwise messed with.

 

If you're looking for a diamond in the rough, it might be a lengthy search. In this case I doubt you'd end up with a nice coin after a dip.

 

I'm no expert in this area (even ignorant, you could say), but I'm guessing this coin showed signs of surface damage or cleaning. In really good light you can usually see hairlines through coins with this much toning. Loss of surface frost is harder to see, but you can usually tell if you look closely. On a really expensive coin it might help to look at it under water or submerged in acetone. Light does funny things and this can sometimes show damage or luster you can't see otherwise.

 

Also, ask yourself why would someone play with a really valuable coin? There's plenty of risk involved and this particular coin isn't done well enough to fool the graders.

 

 

Do you feel better now? I hope so, because your "rant" was more for you than anyone else... IMO. I know that it did nothing to add or contribute, let alone answer my question...

 

 

And, to your question about "who would play with a really valuable coin?" I WOULD......

-especially, if by "playing with" you mean removing some ugly toning or something like that.... seriously, your entire comment is completely out of nowhere..

 

For what it's worth, (which I realize might be nothing), I didn't see that post as a rant.

 

And at least part of it did appear to be in answer to your question, namely:

 

"I'm no expert in this area (even ignorant, you could say), but I'm guessing this coin showed signs of surface damage or cleaning. In really good light you can usually see hairlines through coins with this much toning. Loss of surface frost is harder to see, but you can usually tell if you look closely. On a really expensive coin it might help to look at it under water or submerged in acetone. Light does funny things and this can sometimes show damage or luster you can't see otherwise."

[AHFreak]

Very insightful comments Mark.

 

For whatever reason, I imagined that it would be less of a "guessing game" and more of a skill that can be acquired with years of experience or something like that.

 

 

referring to your reply about your firsthand experience with it.

 

and yes, I agree, the paragraph you quoted was, in part, an answer to my question. I probably did not have to be stand-off ish.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Very insightful comments Mark.

 

For whatever reason, I imagined that it would be less of a "guessing game" and more of a skill that can be acquired with years of experience or something like that.

 

 

referring to your reply about your firsthand experience with it.

 

and yes, I agree, the paragraph you quoted was, in part, an answer to my question. I probably did not have to be stand-off ish.

 

 

It is a skill set that can be acquired. But there's still guesswork involved, as well. As just one example, the thicker and darker the toning, the harder it is to see through it in order to try to assess the coin's surface.

[jerseycat10]

I think the toning is NT. Surprised NGC bagged it.

 

I'm reluctant to assign a grade because the pictures are a little washed out but i'd say 63-64.

[jerseycat10]

Now, to elaborate on the toning...

 

I think it is NT for the following reasons.

 

1) It displays elevation chromatics.

2) the toning is primarily blue and reddish/brown, which are the two most common colors on toned peace dollars.

3) the rims are devoid of toning, which usually isnt the case on AT'ed coins.

[jpcienkus]

Now, to elaborate on the toning...

 

I think it is NT for the following reasons.

 

1) It displays elevation chromatics.

2) the toning is primarily blue and reddish/brown, which are the two most common colors on toned peace dollars.

3) the rims are devoid of toning, which usually isnt the case on AT'ed coins.

 

Thanks. While I'm not the OP, I learned some things about toned Peace dollars.

[Curry]

Im going to have to say its a 63. As for the toning im not the one to say as i dont have experience in it so that i will leave blank for now.

[RWB]

Crème brûlée

[Afterword]

"Crème brûlée"

 

 

 

 

Probably not quite as tasty - but with a little ketchup....

 

[orifdoc]

Sorry if it came off as a rant. Having been swindled myself, I was actually trying to be helpful. Written communication leaves much to be desired. There are plenty of ways to be burned by coin docs. Buying a "messed with" coin in the hopes of turning it into something wonderful is an endeavor that isn't going to work very often. As Mark says, the result of dipping coins can be surprising at times..... both good and bad.

 

Yes coin damage can be undone, but I don't think it's a skill that you'll see taught anytime soon at the ANA Summer Seminar. Legitimate conservation is probably best done by those with enough experience to do it reasonably safely. For most people, it's probably better to let the TPGs and restoration services assume the risk...... thus my comment, if you want problem-free coins, it's usually better to buy them that way.

 

All of that aside, this particular coin looks AT to me, and it was either done to hide damage or to try to improve the "toner premium" of the coin. Either way, it's doctoring and deceptive...... odd how with Peace Dollars it's always seen on coins that the "artists" can acquire for slightly over melt value. I don't recall seeing too many key dates with blatant AT...... they're too expensive to mess with (unless you're a very good cook........)

[Raisethis2]

While I'm no expert on Peace Dollars what I'm seeing is AT. I think the blotchy nature of the toning is a give away, the darkness is quite rare on any Peace Dollar and the lack of luster showing through the toning is a red flag.

 

The reverse pic suggests the high points are a bit too bright and may have gotten that way through some cleaning.

 

I'd crack it and soak it in Acetone for an hour or 2 and see what that gets you. I'd never send it in for re-grading but it may either display more attractive colors or clean up. It's not that valuable as is, why not guinea pig it and learn something?

[Curry]

While I'm no expert on Peace Dollars what I'm seeing is AT. I think the blotchy nature of the toning is a give away, the darkness is quite rare on any Peace Dollar and the lack of luster showing through the toning is a red flag.

 

The reverse pic suggests the high points are a bit too bright and may have gotten that way through some cleaning.

 

I'd crack it and soak it in Acetone for an hour or 2 and see what that gets you. I'd never send it in for re-grading but it may either display more attractive colors or clean up. It's not that valuable as is, why not guinea pig it and learn something?

Its always a good way to learn a few things in a day.

[Afterword]

Orifdoc and Raisethis2: I am not interested in having the coin regraded or dipped. NGC deemed the coin AT and I accept their determination.

 

What I am interested in - is getting opinions on the coin’s grade.

 

[michael]

just from the photos sight seen could be different

 

ms 63 details; AT