1864 CWT Question on Rarity?

[wdrob]

 

I do have the Bowers 'Guide Book on Civil War Tokens' and, while it is very informative, I find it vague in some areas such as pinpointing the rarity of a particular piece.

 

Does anyone have a more accurate reference that would allow me to pinpoint the exact (as exact as they can be) rarity of the following CWT.

 

It is a 1864 Lincoln 'Freedom' f-125/294a. The listing under the die 125 shows an R-6 and the listing under the 294 shows an R-5 ... However I have read other areas on the internet that describe this particular marriage as a R-6 to R-7.

 

Also, I assume that when an R- rating is listed in the CWT book they are relying on the Fuld/Kanzinger Rarity Scale and not the Sheldon. Is this correct?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

[PennyGuy]

The fifth edition of "Patriotic Civil War Tokens" by George and Melvin Fuld lists a 125/294,. in copper, as a Rarity 7. The Fuld rarity scale used for CWT's shows a R-7 as: 11 to 20 estimated number in existence.

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question.

 

I will have to look that book up and see what is available to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

Do you know what year that 5th edition was published?

 

What would a 2005 published (hardbound and red in color) Patriotic Civil War Tokens book be?

 

 

[brg5658]

Do you know what year that 5th edition was published?

 

What would a 2005 published (hardbound and red in color) Patriotic Civil War Tokens book be?

 

 

Do you mean price wise? The 2005 5th Edition is the most recent edition of the book, and the original issue price for the book for non-members of the Civil War Token Society was $35 + $2 shipping. (Link) Though, it appears they are sold out on that site.

 

If previous experience has been any help, once the main distributor of these types of references sells out, they often go up in price dramatically. BUT, if you're patient, you can probably still find a copy for around issue price.

 

Good luck!

 

-Brandon

 

PS -- That's a lovely token you have there.

 

[BillJones]

The fifth edition of "Patriotic Civil War Tokens" by George and Melvin Fuld lists a 125/294,. in copper, as a Rarity 7. The Fuld rarity scale used for CWT's shows a R-7 as: 11 to 20 estimated number in existence.

 

 

I can't believe that that are only 11 to 20 example of the 125/294 CWT die combination. The piece is not as rare as some of the other Lincoln varieties. I have not been in the market for one of these for a while, but back when I was they are often seen in CWT auctions and dealer inventories. Maybe there are less than 100, but putting the limit at 20 is an overstatement of the token's rarity.

 

BTW it is believed that numbers 124 and 125 were from the die. Number 125 is a later die state that is not has sharply defined.

[wdrob]

Do you mean price wise?

 

PS -- That's a lovely token you have there.

 

I was asking if the latest edition (the 5th edition) was a hard bound book that is red in color. I found one of those that was published in 2005 and I was just trying to verify that I was spending my money on the right one.

 

And thank you. I believe that error is a off center strike but I am not sure. It is in a MS64 BN NGC holder.

 

 

 

I can't believe that that are only 11 to 20 example of the 125/294 CWT die combination. The piece is not as rare as some of the other Lincoln varieties. I have not been in the market for one of these for a while, but back when I was they are often seen in CWT auctions and dealer inventories. Maybe there are less than 100, but putting the limit at 20 is an overstatement of the token's rarity.

 

BTW it is believed that numbers 124 and 125 were from the die. Number 125 is a later die state that is not has sharply defined.

 

Yes the 125 is the LDS of the 124. The 124/294 is also rated a R-7. However, after searching the internet, auctions results, and anything else I could, I can confidently say that there are very few appearances of this particular combination. Maybe you could show me where I can find others to support your assertion of even close to a 100, or even 50 for that matter.

 

So far I have yet to find one graded higher than this one either. Not saying that there might not be another graded higher but I will have to find the pop reports for this token on PCGS (0 population) and NGC (7 total MS64 BN highest tied with one other) and see what they say. Then ANACS, if they have a available pop report (site is broke for registration).

 

 

[brg5658]

I was asking if the latest edition (the 5th edition) was a hard bound book that is red in color. I found one of those that was published in 2005 and I was just trying to verify that I was spending my money on the right one.

 

 

Yes, the most recent version is the 5th edition, red cloth hard bound, published in 2005.

[wdrob]

Thanks Brandon.

 

Maybe it will not get terribly high in bids.

 

 

[PennyGuy]

I was asking if the latest edition (the 5th edition) was a hard bound book that is red in color. I found one of those that was published in 2005 and I was just trying to verify that I was spending my money on the right one.

 

 

Yes, the most recent version is the 5th edition, red cloth hard bound, published in 2005.

 

Just a word of caution, be sure to ask the seller what version the book is as well if they don't specifically say. My 4th edition and the newer 5th edition, hard bound, both have similar :red-ish" covers.

 

The last I checked Vernon Coin had a few copies of the 5th edition at an attractive price. Checked on the Bay, looks like they have a few copies left. http://www.ebay.com/itm/PATRIOTIC-CIVIL-WAR-TOKENS-/351072451038?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51bd8c79de

[BillJones]

Yes the 125 is the LDS of the 124. The 124/294 is also rated a R-7. However, after searching the internet, auctions results, and anything else I could, I can confidently say that there are very few appearances of this particular combination. Maybe you could show me where I can find others to support your assertion of even close to a 100, or even 50 for that matter.

 

One of thing you learn when you have collected coins, tokens and medals for a while is that the number of pieces that are offered for sale publically is often only the tip of the iceberg relative to the entire population. Quite often there are more pieces that are sold privately or held in collections that have not seen the light of day for a long time. I bought the piece in my collection in 1993 so it has been off the market for over 20 years.

 

When I bought that piece finding one was not that tough. All it took was a search of the auctions or more frequently dealers' inventories and $125 to $200. Many of the other Lincoln CWTs that are much harder to find and more expensive.

 

Token and medal dealer Steve Hayden has kept records of the number of pieces and the state of preservation for most all of the significant pieces that he has handled over the last 10 to 15 years. It would be interesting to see what his data shows.

 

[brg5658]

Token and medal dealer Steve Hayden has kept records of the number of pieces and the state of preservation for most all of the significant pieces that he has handled over the last 10 to 15 years. It would be interesting to see what his data shows.

 

A search of Steven's online auction archive doesn't yield much for this die combination. I'd guess that maybe a top estimate mintage of 50. It doesn't come up for sale all that often.

[wdrob]

Thank you.

 

That was what I needed. Just the right price too.

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Well Bill, that is about the best I can do when researching a coin for sell. I search all available resources that I know of, I look for auction records, I look at population reports, and then if the data I accumulate matches, or even comes close to the 'hype' that a seller is pitching then I feel more comfortable buying.

 

Unless it can be proven by evidence counter to what I have available, I just have no choice but to go with the findings of the 'experts' who wrote the book and have specialized focus in this particular area.

 

The debate over the actual mintage may be somewhat irrelevant anyway since a token that is supposed to have a reported mintage rarity of R-7 did not have a price tag attached to it that one would expect from such a rarity.

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Token and medal dealer Steve Hayden has kept records of the number of pieces and the state of preservation for most all of the significant pieces that he has handled over the last 10 to 15 years. It would be interesting to see what his data shows.

 

 

To follow up on this; I did take your advice and in an email reply from Steve Hayden, a while back, he stated "My count is 28 125/294 a to 13 124/294 a" in regard to the actual rarity of the piece per his experience through the years you mention.

 

This would put the piece, in the 125/294a die combination at roughly twice as common as the EDS 124/294a, regardless of how many might be unknown since they are not, or have not, been available for purchase due to being held in 'private' collections such as yours, thus making it mere speculation, imo.

 

So according to Steve it is an R-6 and not an R-7 as the book suggests.