1921 D Morgan

[AcesKings]

. But, yes, you got the 1921, it's the second one. I'm just curious, did you get it from the VAM? There's another way to tell.

 

Basically, just matched it up with mine. The 3rd one was close, but since someone said "berries" I matched them up too.

[cpm9ball]

. But, yes, you got the 1921, it's the second one. I'm just curious, did you get it from the VAM? There's another way to tell.

 

Basically, just matched it up with mine. The 3rd one was close, but since someone said "berries" I matched them up too.

 

There are some small dots that may resemble berries, but they are actually small dots produced by a punch for a hardness test.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

And, Chris, I'm impressed, that's indeed the 1890-CC.

 

The only reason I knew it is because I have wanted a nice MS specimen for many years but could never afford one.

 

Chris

[DaveG]

Nice try. I didn't say I can differentiate when in fiscal-year 1921 they were made, did I? I can tell the ones with fiscal-year 1921 on them. I suppose by your ridicule you're saying you don't know how to do that. Don't worry about it, you're not the only one.

 

 

Kurtdog,

 

You said you could tell the difference between a coin made in FY 1921 and FY 1922.

 

I (and I presume RWB) thought you meant you could tell the difference between a 1921 Morgan dollar made in Fiscal Year 1921 (which ran from July 1920 to June 1921) and a 1921 Morgan dollar made in Fiscal Year 1922 (which ran from July 1921 to June 1922).

 

If "FY" means something other than "Fiscal Year" to you, please let me know.

[Kurtdog]

Try these. One is a 1921. Which one?

[RWB]

OK---you meant CY (calendar year).....Yep, 1921 Morgans have a distinctive reverse even without the mintmark.

[AcesKings]

The last one. Missing a berry on the top right (eagles left) wreath, and has PAF.

[Kurtdog]

Nice try. I didn't say I can differentiate when in fiscal-year 1921 they were made, did I? I can tell the ones with fiscal-year 1921 on them. I suppose by your ridicule you're saying you don't know how to do that. Don't worry about it, you're not the only one.

 

Kurtdog,

 

You said you could tell the difference between a coin made in FY 1921 and FY 1922.

 

I (and I presume RWB) thought you meant you could tell the difference between a 1921 Morgan dollar made in Fiscal Year 1921 (which ran from July 1920 to June 1921) and a 1921 Morgan dollar made in Fiscal Year 1922 (which ran from July 1921 to June 1922).

 

If "FY" means something other than "Fiscal Year" to you, please let me know.

If it says 1921 on it, it's a fiscal-year 1921. No, I'm not claiming I can tell which fiscal-year 1921s were actually made in fiscal-year 1922. I can tell which reverses are fiscal-year 1921s. That's all. I hope that clears it up.

[Kurtdog]

The last one. Missing a berry on the top right (eagles left) wreath, and has PAF.

That's exactly it! The top-right leaf cluster on the 1921s only has one berry under it, the berry on the right. Good going. (thumbs u

[cpm9ball]

The last one. Missing a berry on the top right (eagles left) wreath, and has PAF.

 

Very good, grasshopper!

 

Chris

[MarkW]

How about the obverse? 2 of the coins below are 1921s. Which 2?

[cpm9ball]

The 2nd & 3rd are 1921.

 

Chris

[messydesk]

I had read somewhere, can't remember where, that the difference was at the eagles wing, but since your third one has the same difference, but differing berry arrangement, I'd guess that was wrong?

The differences are everywhere and numerous enough that had you studied pre-1921 Morgans enough and never seen a 1921 Morgan before, you'd think it was fake. Flatter relief on both sides, sloppy LIBERTY in the headband, spaghetti hair, flat wings, fat fletching with parallel top feather, large stars left and right of ONE DOLLAR, a funny notch on the F on OF, different alignment of IGWT, wreath berries, a tiny dot in the corner of Liberty's mouth, and so on. It's like comparing a Lincoln cent obverse from 1909 with one from 1999, or a Washington quarter from 1932 with one from 1998.

[DWLange]

Getting back to the original question of why the mintmark is so small on the 1921-D dollars, there is a very simple explanation. This punch was the standard one adopted early in 1917 for all denominations, and it was used thereafter without interruption until 1933, when a larger one was created and debuted on the 1933-D cents and Oregon Trail Halves. The Small D seen on some 1934 dated coins is the result of dies leftover from earlier years that were still serviceable, due to the low mintages of 1931-33.

 

In short, the so-called Micro D and Micro S of 1921 silver dollars is the normal size for all USA coins of that year. It only looks too small in comparison to mintmarks of the 1879-1904 dollars.

[cpm9ball]

Getting back to the original question of why the mintmark is so small on the 1921-D dollars, there is a very simple explanation. This punch was the standard one adopted early in 1917 for all denominations, and it was used thereafter without interruption until 1933, when a larger one was created and debuted on the 1933-D cents and Oregon Trail Halves. The Small D seen on some 1934 dated coins is the result of dies leftover from earlier years that were still serviceable, due to the low mintages of 1931-33.

 

In short, the so-called Micro D and Micro S of 1921 silver dollars is the normal size for all USA coins of that year. It only looks too small in comparison to mintmarks of the 1879-1904 dollars.

 

I was hoping you'd chime in!

 

Thanks, David!

 

Chris

[RWB]

"If it says 1921 on it, it's a fiscal-year 1921."

 

Hmmmm...nope. If the date is "1921" then the coin could have been made during Federal government fiscal years (FY) 1921 or 1922. The date on a US. coin is the calendar year (CY).

 

(At the time the government fiscal year ran from July 1 to the following June 30, so it spanned half of two calendar years. This is one of the factors that makes mint records frustrating to work with - you have to keep the FY and CY reports straight.)

[Kurtdog]

Mark, flip them over, I'll tell you.

 

John, I just look for that single berry, it's yet to fail me.

[MJ]

Very entertaining thread

 

MJ

[cpm9ball]

Mark, flip them over, I'll tell you.

 

What? You can't tell from those photos? It's easy! The top one is in an older NGC slab. The bottom one is in a PCGS slab. The middle two are the only ones in the newer NGC slabs. Ergo! They are the pair of 1921's.

 

Chris

[Kurtdog]

"If it says 1921 on it, it's a fiscal-year 1921."

 

Hmmmm...nope. If the date is "1921" then the coin could have been made during Federal government fiscal years (FY) 1921 or 1922. The date on a US. coin is the calendar year (CY).

 

(At the time the government fiscal year ran from July 1 to the following June 30, so it spanned half of two calendar years. This is one of the factors that makes mint records frustrating to work with - you have to keep the FY and CY reports straight.)

Roger, if you really must, you and Dave read "made" into what I said. Again, I never said I can tell when they were "made." I said I can tell the fiscal-year 1921s. That's all. Such fiscal-year 1921s would include from the ancillary mints, wouldn't they? Thus, my use of "fiscal-year," to bring in those mints.

[Kurtdog]

Mark, flip them over, I'll tell you.

What? You can't tell from those photos? It's easy! The top one is in an older NGC slab. The bottom one is in a PCGS slab. The middle two are the only ones in the newer NGC slabs. Ergo! They are the pair of 1921's.

 

Chris

You Sherlocks don't miss a trick.

[messydesk]

Back to Roger's chain-yanking challenge to discern coins from different fiscal years, there were two different hub designs used for 1921-P coins only. Coins using the second reverse hub (D2) outnumber those using the first (D1) by at least 2:1. Coins made at the branch mints all used the D2 reverse. The Chapman and Zerbe proofs used the D1 reverse. It may be reasonable to assume that coins with the D1 reverse were not made in FY 1922, although this cannot be guaranteed, as it is still possible that the D1 reverse dies were not all exhausted by start of FY 1922, even though they account for less than half of the year's production.

[RWB]

Ahhh...that was what I was hoping would be explained. Thanks, John.

[Kurtdog]

Back to Roger's chain-yanking challenge to discern coins from different fiscal years, there were two different hub designs used for 1921-P coins only. Coins using the second reverse hub (D2) outnumber those using the first (D1) by at least 2:1. Coins made at the branch mints all used the D2 reverse. The Chapman and Zerbe proofs used the D1 reverse. It may be reasonable to assume that coins with the D1 reverse were not made in FY 1922, although this cannot be guaranteed, as it is still possible that the D1 reverse dies were not all exhausted by start of FY 1922, even though they account for less than half of the year's production.

I did notice there's a difference in these 1921 reverses in just the upper-right leaf cluster I'm referencing and that sometimes that made it somewhat difficult to discern whether there indeed was a second berry there or not. These different hub designs just explained that one for me, John, thanks.

[messydesk]

There are three differences between the D1 and D2 reverse hubs that different people like to use:

 

1. D1 has 17 berries in the wreath compared to 16 for the D2. The 17th is the smallish bump on the leaf on the upper right inside wreath.

 

2. D1 has a bunch of horizontal scratches on the topmost arrowhead, while D2 is smooth.

 

3. D1 has the middle talon of the eagle's right (viewer's left) foot hanging down below the branch, while D2 has it simply covering the branch.

[Kurtdog]

1. D1 has 17 berries in the wreath compared to 16 for the D2. The 17th is the smallish bump on the leaf on the upper right inside wreath.

I'll bet that's the one that used to throw me. I'd like to see one if you can find it.