CAC green beaned at 63, goes to 64 CAC beans green again

[dimefreak]

And for the record this happens all the time....

 

Here is another example... I was quite interested in this one because it seems to have nice color for the date. So I went to coinfacts to do a tad bit of research and there it was...same pic ....same everything... accept when this pic was taking it was a MS65... Now its MS66 CAC.... hmmmm

 

[BillJones]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

[jom]

The fact of the matter is that CAC simply will just not give out a gold sticker for a B coin of the next grade up. Why should they take that financial risk? JA will only gold sticker a lock upgrade - a coin that blows him away - essentially an A+ coin of the next grade up.

 

On a conference call with JA last year he said pretty much the same thing. He said they only GOLD stickered coins that were NO-BRAINER upgrades.

 

What people don't seem to realize is there are no hard and fast rules. Grading is subjective and so is eye-appeal. I don't think it's any great crime CAC didn't GOLD sticker it in the first place.

 

I will also state my opinion (which is shared by many in the industry) that PCGS plastic allows more of the flash of the coin to reach the viewers eyes.

 

You know...I had actually noticed this quite a number of years ago but it never really hit me until I read this from you in a thread ATS. I think this is very true. I wonder what elements of the plastic (or the manufacturing process) that creates that?

 

jom

[brg5658]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

[dimefreak]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

 

+1

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

Of course! CAC is not perfect but I'm not going to condemn them over internet pictures when I have first hand experience at how the whole process goes down. I do believe that one can grade circulated coinage off an image but there is NO WAY to do anything but educated guess the grade of an uncirculated or proof coin. Those who condemn off a guess deserve to be rebutted.

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

You do know the point is that it's the SAME COIN, don't you? I thought CAC assessed coins, not "pretty holders". My bad, I'll just keep bleating over here...

 

Pay attention sometimes instead, son - you just might learn something.

[BillJones]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

Of course! CAC is not perfect but I'm not going to condemn them over internet pictures when I have first hand experience at how the whole process goes down. I do believe that one can grade circulated coinage off an image but there is NO WAY to do anything but educated guess the grade of an uncirculated or proof coin. Those who condemn off a guess deserve to be rebutted.

 

With all due respect I think that a lot of us could tell between an MS or PR-61 or 62 and most MS or PR-64 or higher grade coins. Hairlines, marks and spots do show up in photos, and when there are too many of them you can't grade something as "Choice."

 

As for your "Of course!" response, why don't you post an example? It would improve your credentials as a CAC advocate. You might consider using that 1807 net graded dime that was discussed here a few months ago. From what I understood, John pulled the sticker off it.

[kryptonitecomics]

For clarification sake...were all of the Newman coins in NGC edgeview holders? If that is the case then I simply can't see a case for TDN to say that a coin didn't look the grade in the NGC holder but did look the grade in the PCGS holder. Perhaps he wasn't specifically talking about a Newman coin and I read into his statement...

 

If we are talking about an NGC coin in an older holder vs a PCGS holder then I can absolutely see how a coin would look better and potentially grade higher in the slab especially on smaller denominations where the coin gets no light to the surface.

 

In any case...whether I share or don't share his opinion doesn't mean he's is wrong and I am right....we are all entitled to our opinions. In the case of the coin that went from 63+ CAC to 64 CAC....I am of the opinion that it reflects negatively on CAC regardless of the cases being presented. I don't think the coins owner or CAC is going to lose any sleep over me thinking they dropped the ball....just stating my opinion (thumbs u

[Tradedollarnut]

I personally know of two or three coins that they have pulled stickers off. Always, JA has sought them out and bought them back. I also have disagreed with two or three coins that I have seen that were stickered. These are statistically irrelevant.

 

As far as grading off an image, no you really can't - it's just a guess. It leads to micro grading where mint bloom is ignored and marks become the primary focus. An MS64 with full mint bloom is allowed to have a ton of marks....without being able to assess the luster there is no way to determine the appropriate net grade,

 

How many Newman coins have you seen before and after crossover? I have seen at least a dozen, closer to two dozen. I have a first hand formulated opinion based on real life experience - not internet images.

 

If you are willing to condemn off a guess, that is your right - just as it's my right to call you on it.

[dimefreak]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

Of course! CAC is not perfect but I'm not going to condemn them over internet pictures when I have first hand experience at how the whole process goes down. I do believe that one can grade circulated coinage off an image but there is NO WAY to do anything but educated guess the grade of an uncirculated or proof coin. Those who condemn off a guess deserve to be rebutted.

 

With all due respect I think that a lot of us could tell between an MS or PR-61 or 62 and most MS or PR-64 or higher grade coins. Hairlines, marks and spots do show up in photos, and when there are too many of them you can't grade something as "Choice."

 

As for your "Of course!" response, why don't you post an example? It would improve your credentials as a CAC advocate. You might consider using that 1807 net graded dime that was discussed here a few months ago. From what I understood, John pulled the sticker off it.

 

His credentials can be found on top of page four of this thread. He is a business man.... A damn good one!!! But as for advice on actual collector coins.... well lets just say I wouldn't ever have him look at a lot for me...

[Tradedollarnut]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

[dimefreak]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

 

Be honest.... Laura does your heavy lifting... Its blatantly obvious by countless post made by yourself

[Tradedollarnut]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

 

Be honest.... Laura does your heavy lifting... Its blatantly obvious by countless post made by yourself

 

You sir are an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and back on my ignore list. How about trying to actually learn something from people that know much more than you instead of just being an and insulting them?

[kryptonitecomics]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

 

 

I agree that it used to be a problem...no doubt about it...I simply disagree with any assertion that it is still a problem and I am a full time dealer so I do make my living off of knowing this 24/7/365 (thumbs u

[BillJones]

An MS64 with full mint bloom is allowed to have a ton of marks....without being able to assess the luster there is no way to determine the appropriate net grade,

 

Well I guess my 1853 Arrows and Rays half dollar should be a cinch to cross to PCGS and get a CAC sticker; it's got great cartwheel luster. But I know it won't because it does not have the PCGS "look;" it's been dipped. When I was dealer I had a well known dealer borrow a similar coin NGC graded Seated half from me so that he could put thought the PCGS show grading with $100 fee for a want list client. It flunked.

 

That's why I could buy it cheap, but I obviously didn't think that it was a bad coin.

 

[BillJones]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

 

 

I agree that it used to be a problem...no doubt about it...I simply disagree with any assertion that it is still a problem and I am a full time dealer so I do make my living off of knowing this 24/7/365 (thumbs u

 

I agree. The new NGC plastic is much better. The old plastic had "hairlines" on it, and it was not from scratches.

 

Some people complain that the new plastic shows too many fingerprints, but that is easy to fix. Just wipe it on your shirt. No fool'n.

[MarkFeld]

I'm with Hardtimes. Unfortunately CAC has got its pants down around its ankles on this one. I think the coin was over graded when it was MS-63. It should have been no better than MS-62 because of the surface chatter on the obverse and envelope friction which resulted in a possible rub on Ms. Liberty's thigh. That bright, fresh looking mark in the right field really makes the MS-64 grade very suspect.

 

You really do know better than to make such pronouncements off an image, don't you?

 

I personally have not seen the coin. But I have seen enough crossed Newman items to know how they look different in the new holder. And I understand why a coin might green sticker at two grades. Anything else is just internet bleating...

 

If CAC did make a mistake, would you ever admit it in public?

 

Of course! CAC is not perfect but I'm not going to condemn them over internet pictures when I have first hand experience at how the whole process goes down. I do believe that one can grade circulated coinage off an image but there is NO WAY to do anything but educated guess the grade of an uncirculated or proof coin. Those who condemn off a guess deserve to be rebutted.

 

With all due respect I think that a lot of us could tell between an MS or PR-61 or 62 and most MS or PR-64 or higher grade coins. Hairlines, marks and spots do show up in photos, and when there are too many of them you can't grade something as "Choice."

 

As for your "Of course!" response, why don't you post an example? It would improve your credentials as a CAC advocate. You might consider using that 1807 net graded dime that was discussed here a few months ago. From what I understood, John pulled the sticker off it.

 

His credentials can be found on top of page four of this thread. He is a business man.... A damn good one!!! But as for advice on actual collector coins.... well lets just say I wouldn't ever have him look at a lot for me...

 

If it were a gemmy coin, in particular, I'd be pleased to have Bruce look for me. I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

[dimefreak]

Yes, NGC plastic has gotten MUCH better. It used to have surface issues ... what looked like micro etching that interfered with light flow. Nonetheless, it is still a slight issue,

 

People who make their living off doing this 24/7/365 don't just make up to annoy the posters here ...believe it or not!

 

Be honest.... Laura does your heavy lifting... Its blatantly obvious by countless post made by yourself

 

You sir are an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and back on my ignore list. How about trying to actually learn something from people that know much more than you instead of just being an and insulting them?

 

your a riot... Truth is at the end of the day Bill Jones has forgot more about coins than you have ever known... There are people here that I look up to... I can assure you that you would never see me write anything that insinuated Mark Feld had inferior knowledge to numismatics than I do. I have a long list of people that know more about coins than I do. With you, all I have to go off is what I see you write on the boards. I am very convinced that giving the opportunity I could out grade you and spot problems on coins that you didn't notice. So if Laura isn't doing your heavy lifting who the heck is?

[Tradedollarnut]

I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

 

Both. Clueless is his middle name....and being difficult is his game.

 

As far as being able to grade coins goes, I've won the collector division of the PCGS grading contest ... and come in second. Both probably before he was born.

 

 

 

[dimefreak]

I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

 

Both. Clueless is his middle name....and being difficult is his game.

 

As far as being able to grade coins goes, I've won the collector division of the PCGS grading contest ... and come in second. Both probably before he was born.

 

 

 

Thought I was on your ignore list?

[BillJones]

I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

 

Both. Clueless is his middle name....and being difficult is his game.

 

As far as being able to grade coins goes, I've won the collector division of the PCGS grading contest ... and come in second. Both probably before he was born.

 

 

 

I tried to enter that contest but was denied because I don't have a set on the PCGS registry. I do subscribe to "Coin Facts" which one member of the PCGS staff told me should have counted, but whatever ...

[MarkFeld]

I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

 

Both. Clueless is his middle name....and being difficult is his game.

 

As far as being able to grade coins goes, I've won the collector division of the PCGS grading contest ... and come in second. Both probably before he was born.

 

 

 

Thought I was on your ignore list?

 

I'm sure you are and I don't blame him. He replied to my post, not yours. And I think I will follow his lead.

[FishyOne]

Okay folks, now I am completely confused. CAC green beaned this half at 63+, it crosses to an 'overgraded' 64 by PCGS, and it beans green again. Wail, if CAC were consistent in their grading, then shouldn't it have been gold beaned at 63+, then green at 64? Or green beaned at 63+ and no bean at 64? Go figure.

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1190&lotNo=33722

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/cac-approved/new-50%C2%A2-1853-arrows-and-rays-pcgs-ms64-cac-ex-newmancol-green

 

 

You're "completely confused" because it appears that CAC wasn't perfectly consistent. Your expectations were unrealistic.

 

By the way, the fact that CAC stickered a 63 coin and PCGS subsequently graded it 64, doesn't necessarily mean it was "overgraded" as a 64.

 

Forget PCGS, the OP is addressing CAC. You left out the part that CAC green beaned the coin as a MS63 (A,B coin) then when reholdered as a MS64 once again gave it the green bean (A, B coin).

 

Logically, that means that the coin holdered as MS63 should have had a gold bean.

 

I'm going to call shenanigans. That is not inconsistent, that is down right misleading. CAC had to be aware of this coins history in their data base.

 

Perhaps the Newman pedigree and the PCGS grade made JA and company reevaluate their original opinion.

 

Carl

 

 

Huh? The serial number changed when it was re-graded. This exact same issue has happened to me a couple times and it's not a problem. CAC saw it as worthy as a 63 and then again as a 64. What's the problem?

[dimefreak]

I can't tell whether you're clueless about his ability to assess coins, if you're just trying to be difficult or both.

 

Both. Clueless is his middle name....and being difficult is his game.

 

As far as being able to grade coins goes, I've won the collector division of the PCGS grading contest ... and come in second. Both probably before he was born.

 

 

 

Thought I was on your ignore list?

 

I'm sure you are and I don't blame him. He replied to my post, not yours. And I think I will follow his lead.

 

Sorry you feel that way Mark... I have nothing but kind words to say about you... Bruce doesn't come over here to contribute in a positive way. He comes over here and demonstrates a self anointed attitude. Go through his user post... Every title has something to do with CAC, Laura, or grading... Unfortunately for him Don Willis don't patrol these boards and I have no issues displaying how unimpressed I am with his views. He don't get his diapers changed over here. Apparently he is not used to that type of a reception. And please take note that I do call a spayed a spayed. I go on record saying that Bruce is a damn good businessman... This is after he called me disparaging names. I have no Ill taste toward Bruce and I don't need to call him names to demonstrate my point. It is what it is...

[FishyOne]

So the OPs question was how can 63+ green bean and then also green bean as a 64. That started this whole thing. It's clear a few people here just don't like CAC. That's fine. To say that a coin can't go from a green bean 63+ to a green bean 64 is ridiculous. I once had a PCGS MS62 $10 Lib with a CAC Green sticker that I sent in for re-grade and it came back 63. It went back to CAC and got a green bean again. I was a bit surprised it re-beaned and was also a bit surprised it upgraded at PCGS. Fact was it had great luster and a strong strike but was pretty nicked up for a 63. Luster/strike carried the day.

 

Anyways, all the finger pointing and ranting doesn't get us anywhere. The old saying goes like this, "You can't throw mud on somebody without getting some it on yourself". There are some heavy hitters posting in this thread (and I'm NOT one of them). You guys please cool off and keep posting here. I appreciate your knowledge and insight but nobody needs this bickering over "opinions".

[BillJones]

It's clear a few people here just don't like CAC. That's fine.

 

The issue is not whether we like or dislike CAC. The issue is that some people have put CAC on a very high pedestal which is more than some us think it deserves. There are honest differences of opinion, and outright mistakes. When you are put up on the high pedestal, the mistakes are going to pull you down.

[Hard Times]

So the OPs question was how can 63+ green bean and then also green bean as a 64. That started this whole thing. It's clear a few people here just don't like CAC. That's fine. To say that a coin can't go from a green bean 63+ to a green bean 64 is ridiculous. I once had a PCGS MS62 $10 Lib with a CAC Green sticker that I sent in for re-grade and it came back 63. It went back to CAC and got a green bean again. I was a bit surprised it re-beaned and was also a bit surprised it upgraded at PCGS. Fact was it had great luster and a strong strike but was pretty nicked up for a 63. Luster/strike carried the day.

 

Anyways, all the finger pointing and ranting doesn't get us anywhere. The old saying goes like this, "You can't throw mud on somebody without getting some it on yourself". There are some heavy hitters posting in this thread (and I'm NOT one of them). You guys please cool off and keep posting here. I appreciate your knowledge and insight but nobody needs this bickering over "opinions".

 

Fishy, I am just baffled - if, as CAC does, and if, as they say they do, decide between A-B versus C coins for a specific grade, such that they have now split the hairs even finer than the TPG's in grading, then I simply cannot fathom how a coin can jump from 63 green beaned to 64 green beaned, especially on a coin that is so obvious what its original grade was. They have that info and we all know they do and they know we know. Which is why I brought this up when I saw the evidence that they do this. This simply goes against their defined way of deciding whether the coin is worthy of a bean. I get the subjectivity of grading, but the idea being pushed by CAC, even if not explicitly said, is that they are really getting down to defining a coins quality within a grade and making determinations on how the TPG's have done. 4rth party grading. I like to think if you are going to grade the graders, you should be more consistent with your grading once you have defined how you are going to grade - A,B vs. C etc. You can't go changing your opinions later in such an obvious way because that is what the TPG's do and that is why we have grade inflation. I think that part of the reason to have 4th party grading is to stop grade inflation, but now I see that I am wrong as many folks here point out that CAC rebeans coin in higher grades frequently.

 

I see many explanations here as to why it could happen and does, but it does not stand with what CAC says on their website as to what they are doing. On the other hand, if the bean really means that CAC would be glad buying a coin in whatever holder it is in, then okay, no worries, they are setting a market and saying this coin is in their market. I have no problems with that. And I simply might be a dumb ole boy here, after all I have only extensively viewed coins during lot viewing and on the bourse over the last decade and I know many of you have much more experience than I do. So I need more clear understanding here I guess before I can relate to my observation in my original post. That was what I was trying to do, to get info to help me understand what I believed to be an inconsistency with CAC that does not appear to follow in cases, especially one as obvious as this Newman coin, the A-B, versus C in a specific grade designation that then can become an A-B in a higher grade.

 

Everyone thanks for posting, I apologize because I just wanted answers, I did not want to upset everyone by opening up the issue and apparently I have. I respect all you for your outstanding numismatic knowledge and contributions.

 

Sorry...

 

Best, HT

[mommam17]

Yup, that's me. I put CAC on a high pedestal and think John deserves it, even though he is not perfect as some expect. There's been pro CAC and anti CAC since they started in Oct. 2007 at the first Coinfest Show in Old Greenwich, Ct. I've read these arguments for over 6 years. I'll line up with pro CAC people that support John every time.

[BillJones]

Everyone thanks for posting, I apologize because I just wanted answers, I did not want to upset everyone by opening up the issue and apparently I have. I respect all you for your outstanding numismatic knowledge and contributions.

 

Not upsetting someone over this issue is an impossibility. It's like religion and politics.