Stamp, Coin, & Paper Money Show @ Westchester County Civic Center (NY)

[GoldFinger1969]

His is the first set of tables that potential sellers see as they walk in. I have had many dealers express displeasure that he is hogging business activity. I would recommend really asking dealers how they feel about business activity there. One major dealer said his experience was that the show was going downhill. My connection to this show goes back to around 1997. The show started around 1960.

 

Wow....1960. (thumbs u

 

Oh, I get it...so his table is right there when you come off the stairs ? Well, if he is running it I don't think giving himself the best space is out of order. I mean, are other dealers saying they think people come down the steps, stop at his table, and then leave ? At the Parsippany Show, they had some dealers in the hallway instead of the room -- THAT's something to be upset about.

 

Nut, next time (or if you go again this weekend) let us know why some of these guys are saying the show is going downhill. Maybe they see their sales going down or traffic down. It's only my 2nd time this weekend so I'm the last guy to know. Maybe I'll ask around.

[GoldFinger1969]

While I haven't been to the White Plains show in half a dozen years or so, it has been on "life support" for probably the past decade. Floor traffic is light and many dealers go elsewhere (usually Parsippany) on Sundays.

 

Why is that ? Because Parsippany draws from more states and a wider audience ? As a monthly show with fewer dealers, I didn't think the traffice was as big as that at Westchester (comparing Westchester January to Parsippany March).

 

When I first started going to White Plains over a decade ago, of the four shows each year, I think all of them were held upstairs. Over the next couple of years, first one and then another were moved downstairs to the much smaller basement room until now, I think only the Thanksgiving show is held upstairs.When I used to go to this show, when you go downstairs and enter the basement room, the first dealer you saw (and he had a big multi-table setup) was the show anager.

 

What do the dealers and Mark say about why the attendance (and presumably the number of dealers) are both down from when it was held upstairs ?

 

I attended baseball card shows upstairs...they probably have room for 125-150 dealers, no ? Did they get that many a decade ago ?

 

I wonder if attendance/dealers were a residue of the Coin Bubble from a decade or so earlier ?

 

Parsippany is always much busier than White Plains.

 

Really ? I didn't think so from what I saw above...but don't forget, Westchester is 3-days and Parsippany is 1-day.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

If you want to get a better picture of how the White Plains show has done over the years, I'd recommend you talk to Jon Lerner (Scarsdale Coins), if he's still doing the White Plains show.

 

He's attended White Plains for a long time and he used to set up at Parsippany, but stopped several years ago. He also was one of the principals behind CoinFest, which was a competing show in CT but only lasted a few years (from 2009-2011, I think).

[GoldFinger1969]

April Show Update:

 

Less information than my other update, as I only stayed a few hours today due to family commitments.

 

I went to the April show today with 3 friends. One is a bullion collector who buys gold and/or silver regularly....the other used to collect as a kid and still adds small coin stuff like Presidential Quarters and the like....the other guy just wanted to check it out, collected as a kid and thought he would tag along with his friends.

 

At first, attendance was dead. I think it had something to do with the fact that I arrived at 9:25 AM and the show starts at 10 AM. Oops, forgot to check the start time.... So we'll give the show a mulligan on that......

 

Seriously, after a quick coffee and breakfast across the street I entered a bit after 10 AM. Attendance was a bit thinner than the same time in January (it was a nice day in NY, maybe people were doing stuff). I also detected that the same spots occupied by dealers in January were empty. Also fewer stamp dealers, too.

 

I made the rounds looking for Double Eagles, Liberty's or Saints, more looking than buying. A few dealers who had some Saints/Liberty's weren't there and even the ones who had before had none or fewer. One of the dealers had one of the most beautiful and striking Saints I have ever seen: a 1928 MS-66+ that he said was likely for CAC green. He was asking just over $4,000 for it, which was way too rich for my blood (unless my Lotto numbers came in Saturday night ). Stunning coin, just stunning. I don't think I have ever seen a higher-rated Saint since I haven't been able to go to a big regional show like Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach, etc.

 

Got some interesting information from talking to some vendors. One older gent said that alot of the older dealers either died or can no longer physically make the drive or load/unload their tables. He rattled off at least 6 or 7 names, saying that was at least 12-15 tables. Most of the dealers were middle-aged or older. Very few were staffed by folks under 40, though there were a few.

 

Another guy agreed with my thesis that alot of people entered the business in the 1990's AFTER the Coin Bubble and 'inertia' kept them to the early-2000's and then they began to fade. Some may have hoped for a bounce-back sooner. Older dealers who were around in the 1960's reaped a 3-fold boom: the early-1970's when gold was unshackled (5-fold increase in price) and then the late-1970's (5-fold increase again) and then even though gold did nothing in the 1980's you still had a relatively new commodity to buy that alot of people made money on and/or thought would bounce back. PLUS.... new gold coins (Maple Leaf, Eagles, etc.) besides the staid Kruggerand. Some of the guys who entered the business LATE never made the $$$ that the older/earlier dealers made. Margins and price boosts on new products weren't like when gold took off and/or numismatic value soared. Increased supply overwhelmed demand and depressed margins. Another dealer noted that he used to make $100 on a $1,000 gold coin in the 1970's/1980's but that $100 today was alot less money, if he could even make that. As an example, one of my friends met a co-worker at the show and she bought 10-12 gold bullion coins at about $38 spot to gold.

 

INTERESTING FLYER: I saw a flyer promoting the BayStateCoinShow.com....their attendance seems to be doing very well. They said that their attendance was the best in 15 years, drawing from a multi-state region and avoiding big-city (Boston) congestion. Hmmm......

 

I hope to attend the rest of the Westchester shows this year, including the Thanksgiving Show which is held upstairs. I used to attend baseball card shows there and have alot of good memories (though not good purchases, in retrospect ).

[Nutmeg Coin]

Gary Parietti had the Gem Saints you were probably talking about, I sold him one for the 1876 $20 in MS60 last week at a show, he had already sold that one. You can check out his site here; http://www.linumis.com/store.php Lots of unique material there, including problem material that even the best doctors could not fix and traps.

 

Joe Valardi/Gardner coin had some $20s that would probably grade around MS60 for $1400 or so, but you would have to send them in to grading. The dealer from Philly had an MS64 $20 PCGS with copper spots for under $1700, I'm not sure if PCGS does removals of spots like NGC. Lots of upside at these prices in my opinion. I bought a nice AU $5 Indian for $400 from the coin guy, he said business picked up on Saturday with a significant buying opportunity. He was pretty busy at Parsippany on Sunday, and seems to be doing pretty well which goes to show if you shake enough trees the right fruit should turn up.

 

Last month Parsippany show a stamp dealer with numismatics also had an 1810 $5 gold piece with light scratches but otherwise a great Unc. coin for over $10K, he ended up selling it for the 10. I was thinking it might grade on a good day, but the problem with coins with minor issues is that they will never fetch the serious market unless they get into real holders. A case in point one of the dealers had this 1854 $20 Lib. that he had bought from HA for around $2500 and was still trying to sell it: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1191&lotNo=8673

 

A collector was trying to get $650 for a John Hart signed Colonial note that looked Unc., the dealer he showed it to was not interested, I said I would be interested but because I was not set up there I could not buy it from him. I pointed out John Stassins who has had a John Hart note in his case for around a year.

 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Nut, don't think it was Gary...it was Lou from Maryland (lost his card)......very nice guy, hope to buy from him in the near future. (thumbs u

 

I never bothered to ask if the Stamp Guys had any coins. They should have signs indicating they do. Next time I'll inspect them more closely.

 

A case in point one of the dealers had this 1854 $20 Lib. that he had bought from HA for around $2500 and was still trying to sell it: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1191&lotNo=8673

 

Nut, that coin IS in a holder so what's the problem -- he just bought it too high ?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Goldfin, the interesting thing about that coin is that it is Unc. with the scratch issue, probably Allan Stockton of Coin Restoration or the other "doctors" would not be able to help it much as those cases have been known to go into cardiac arrest on the operating table. The point was that he wanted $2800 for the coin, which is pretty cheap considering what MS60s are worth.

 

No one wants to be a sucker hence the reluctance to buy coins with even minor problems....

 

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

When Nutmeg Coin says a "real holder" he means a "no problem" slab, not a "details" slab.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, When Nutmeg Coin says a "real holder" he means a "no problem" slab, not a "details" slab.

 

Gotcha...you mean like the NGC slabs which have all the extra descriptives I take it ?

[DaveG]

Yes - unless one is an expert, one should only buy "no problem" slabs, which are slabs that only have a grade on them.

 

Way back when, it was only ANACS that had "problem" slabs; then NGC started NCS, which slabbed "problem" coins; then NGC started producing its own "problem" slabs. Then, finally PCGS started slabbing "problem" coins.

 

Some people like to play the game of trying to get "problem" coins into "no problem" slabs, but for ordinary mortals, a "problem" coin is very hard to sell and one shouldn't pay a "no problem" price for a "problem" coin.

 

Determining how much to pay for a "problem" coin is pretty much left to experts (or people making big mistakes).

[GoldFinger1969]

Yes - unless one is an expert, one should only buy "no problem" slabs, which are slabs that only have a grade on them. Way back when, it was only ANACS that had "problem" slabs; then NGC started NCS, which slabbed "problem" coins; then NGC started producing its own "problem" slabs. Then, finally PCGS started slabbing "problem" coins. Some people like to play the game of trying to get "problem" coins into "no problem" slabs, but for ordinary mortals, a "problem" coin is very hard to sell and one shouldn't pay a "no problem" price for a "problem" coin. Determining how much to pay for a "problem" coin is pretty much left to experts (or people making big mistakes).

 

Does that mean that the TPGs will now slab pretty much anything but they'll give WARNING labels on the front ?

 

At least it has a caveat emptor warning on the front, but it leads to the increased Balkanization of the coin market I have talked about here before.

[Nutmeg Coin]

They don't slab fakes, I got notice today from a grading service of one of the coins being a fake, which are worth melt value at best unless you have a contemporary fake, like from the era of the 1800s when the real coins were minted.

 

This was once one of the best NY shows when the coin markets were stronger and there were more serious dealers with nice inventory.

[GoldFinger1969]

Anybody attending Westchester this Friday-Sunday ?

 

I'll probably go at least one of the days, maybe two. My father is even thinking of coming, he may buy a gold coin or two (bullion).

 

Went to my 1st show 1 year ago so will be interesting to compare tables and traffic.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Thanks for the heads-up Goldfinger. Lots of collectors are there when they open the doors at 12 noon on Friday.

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks for the heads-up Goldfinger. Lots of collectors are there when they open the doors at 12 noon on Friday.

Well, I'll be there a bit after the doors open -- maybe 1-2 PM -- so if anybody is going to be there post here and we can hook up for a spell. I may or may not go back Saturday.

[GoldFinger1969]

Westchester Coin Show Review, January 23-24:

 

Went to the Weschester Coin Show on both Friday and Saturday. Observations:

(1) Attendance was light on Friday and lighter on Saturday, no doubt partially the result of snow that happened overnight. The roads were good but people tend to get out later as they dig out their cars. Some of my friends from further up north got hit with more inches so they couldn't make it down.

 

I went Friday from 1 - 2 PM and Saturday from 12:30 - 2 PM. Dealers were down from the 2 times I went last year (Jan/Apr) with about 30-35 tables I'd estimate. Some of the tables were lightly staffed or covered up. I'd say it was an equal number of dealers vs. attendees on Friday but Saturday there weren't much more than 1-2 dozen attendees. Most of the tables had nobody at them. A few of the tables had blue tarps over them, either because the dealer was out for a while (all day ?) or was prepping to leave. A few people were leaving earlier than usual on Saturday Get Away Day because of the weather and light attendnace.

(2) A few people independently volunteered to me that the show could be ALOT BETTER if they advertised it better. This seems to jibe with the Bay State Coin Show. Not sure what Westchester used to do and what they do now compared to other coin shows but there's got to be more they could do on-line and also with local advertising (Scouts, Schools, etc.). Maybe contact local jewelry/estate sales places and invite them to come and also post in their shops to attract traffic? Dunno.......

 

(3) Pricing on Morgans seemed fair (though I am admittedly not very savvy on this segment) but on Saint-Gaudens a few of the dealers admitted they were high to the Grey Sheet because premiums fell after the gold price drop of late-2014. Commons were bid high-1,600's on Grey but a few dealers I asked seem to be low-1800's. Wonder if others have seen this ?

 

(4) PURCHASES: My father came to the show with me on Friday. He bought 2 gold bullion coins (1 oz.), Buffalo and Eagle. Of Note: my father was VERY IMPRESSED with the slabs that didn't come with too much of a premium because he wanted to buy the coins as presents for his grandkids. He liked having them in a nice hard plastic shell...thought the rating was nice (not that he knew what it meant)....and much nicer than giving a plain coin in a plastic sleeve, sealed or unsealed. If you don't charge too much of a premium, this could be a nice way to get purchases from relatives/friends for youngsters who just want a decent coin or bullion piece and like the PCGS/NGC plastic slab as a way to protect the coin. With the TPG on the front, the rating, and other information, it also may spur interest in the slab/coin/hobby. Think about it....my father actually called me the next day to say he wants 2 more either at the next show or sooner so he has all 4 for the grandkids done (I'll see if he goes this route for his own small collection; he has gold in plain plastic sleeves because that's what I bought him).

 

So much for dad...me ? Bought the 2013-W Silver Eagle Enhanced & Reverse Proof set in PF-69....bought the 70's a year ago and they tanked since then so I figured I double-down and get the 69's and see if I or anybody else can tell the difference. Cheaper, too.

 

Also bought a 2014 MS-69 Panda Silver and a 2015 MS-70 Panda Silver, too. Early Release, wow !! Hey, a few bucks more and since I don't have the $$$ for gold right now (unemployed), I splurged on gold-plated silver investments. Or is it silver-plated silver investments ?

 

Also got a 2014 Mexican 1-oz. silver piece, a Libertad (whatever the heck that is ). PF-69 Ultra Cameo...another conversation piece. Another OVERPRICED conversation piece.....

 

Finally, I was going to buy another Morgan Dollar GSA but really wanted to buy a 1900 or 1904 MS-66 Morgan (Stack's collection, something-or-other) but @ $350 a bit pricey with what I had left in my wallet (and a quick run to the CVS ATM machine since 1 dealer only took cash ). So I compromised and got an 1898 MS-64 PL Morgan for less than half the other one. Quick glance at Ebay seems I paid somewhere in the vicinity of market value; as I said above, Morgan pricing not as quick to this recent re-energized collector as Saints and gold prices. But as long as I stay away from pricey acquisitions on stuff I am not as familiar with, my errors can't be fatal.

 

(5) SUGGESTIONS: Granted, the show isn't big but having signs hanging from the ceiling or above the tables would probably help newcomers and even veterans find where they want to go. Some dealers changed locations from previous shows and it actually took me a while to find them. Do more advertising -- this show should be better attended (talk to the Bay State Show people ?). Can we work out a discount for parking with WCC -- maybe $5 instead of $7 ? Might attract a few more people if they have a discount coupon or something.

 

Here's a crazy idea: a GREAT organic burger place -- BareBurger -- is 5 minutes away by car. They are pricey but they have organic AND exotic burgers (elk, wild boar, etc.). Maybe the show could work something out with them to get people to Bareburger and try them who normally wouldn't go. Again, discount coupons !! I went there today for my 2nd time in a few months, and the burgers are out-of-this-world.

 

http://www.bareburger.com/

 

That's about it. I would like to hit the Bay State Coin Show in April but assuming Westchester is not the same weekend I will certainly go back in 3 months. Hopefully, more people will attend, too.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Glad you and your dad enjoyed the show GF. I also attended both days and agree attendance has been in decline for quite a while. I ran into a customer, Joel, who couldn't say enough about a PL CC Morgan I had sold him, product of NCS conservation. He was there with a friend. I went back with a friend yesterday who has been collecting since the 60s. Table fees are high at $350 for the two days, so unless dealers can do enough business to justify that, they may pull out as others have. Many one day shows are a solution, with table fees at around $50 for one day but they tend to be at less impressive places. I share the interest in healthier food options and coin dealers would probably eat healthier if it were convenient, but you have the concession stand at the show with the less healthy food.

 

15 years ago their three day shows were substantial local shows with New World rarities holding their Saturday night auctions. They could turn around the downward trajectory of the show by getting lots of feedback from the numismatic community in that high population area, but are they interested?

[DaveG]

Glad you enjoyed the show!

 

The show has certainly been in decline for at least the last decade, but somehow it keeps going.

 

The promoter does some marketing - I still get postcards announcing the show even though I haven't been since at least 2007 - but it doesn't seem to be doing much good.

 

It's funny that Parsippany isn't that far away from Westchester, but it's a much livelier show - maybe being a one-day show helps or maybe New Jersey just has more coin collectors.

[GoldFinger1969]

Maybe door prizes, some inexpensive coins give out every hour ? But you have to BE THERE to claim the prize ?

[DaveG]

Not many shows still have door prizes, but I'd think they'd be popular.

 

They'd have to be something worth having (like a Silver Eagle or 1/10 Gold Eagle) and it would be nice if you didn't have to be there to win.

 

If they gave a prize every hour or two, then perhaps one would have to be there to win.

[GoldFinger1969]

Not many shows still have door prizes, but I'd think they'd be popular.

They'd have to be something worth having (like a Silver Eagle or 1/10 Gold Eagle) and it would be nice if you didn't have to be there to win. If they gave a prize every hour or two, then perhaps one would have to be there to win.

That's a great idea....you give away a Silver Eagle or a 1/10th oz. gold piece -- maybe not every hour if it's too much but certainly every 90 minutes or every 2 hours -- I think it's a real boost. The 1/10th oz. gold piece might be too much -- maybe the last drawing of the day to keep folks there ? -- or you can go 1/20th oz. (thumbs u

 

Can always give away cheaper stuff or coin supplies, too.

 

Figure a slabbed Eagle or 1-oz. silver piece is given away every hour....that's 6-8 per day....so figure 20 coins over the 3 days.....$1,000 needed in donations. You can then advertise "1,000's in Door Prizes"

 

Maybe someone donates...or it's tacked on to the cost of the booth ? Wouldn't be a huge cost increase and if it drives more traffic, it pays for itself and then some.

 

Do other coin shows have door prizes or other attractions ?

[GoldFinger1969]

When is the next Westchester Show -- I can't find it on the web.