My 1st St. Gaudens Purchase

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Actually there's a lot of material out there that discusses the use of gold and silver coins (and currency) in daily life, although you're right, depending on the time and place, sometimes a researcher has to combine a lot of material to get a coherent picture.

 

The book to start with is Fractional Money by Neil Carothers. It focuses on the use of coins smaller than a dollar in America from Colonial days through the end of the 19th century.

 

Another book that includes a couple of excellent chapters on the use of gold and silver coins in the US in the mid-19th century is The Treasure Ship SS Brother Jonathan by Q. David Bowers.

 

Also, I wrote a chapter on the use of gold coins in commerce in the 19th century for Gold Coins of the New Orleans Mint: 1839-1909 by Douglas Winter. Major portions of this book, including my chapter, are available to be viewed for free on Google Books.

 

If you're interested in contemporary 19th century sources, there's a ton of material on Google Books. Banking was something that was very much learned on the job, so there were a lot of "how-to" books written in the 19th century. One of my favorites is The Banks of New-York, Their Dealers, The Clearing House, and the Panic of 1857 by J.S. Gibbons (1859). I'm not sure that this is on Google Books, however, as I have a copy of the 1968 reprint and haven't needed to look for it.

 

There are, however, many similar books, as well as a plethora of books examining the "money question" and Bi-metallism that were written in the later 19th century.

 

There's also a lot of books that have been written in the past 60 years or so that focus on banking history or the history of commerce or that discuss the memoirs and letters of various merchants. All of these have a lot of useful information in them, sometimes in the text, and sometimes in the footnotes and bibliography.

 

As far as who's publishing the material on the post-1933 gold seizures, Roger publishes the Journal of Numismatic Research (which is available from Wizard Coin Supply). I expect that's where you'll see it when it has been published.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, Actually there's a lot of material out there that discusses the use of gold and silver coins (and currency) in daily life, although you're right, depending on the time and place, sometimes a researcher has to combine a lot of material to get a coherent picture.The book to start with is Fractional Money by Neil Carothers. It focuses on the use of coins smaller than a dollar in America from Colonial days through the end of the 19th century.

 

Awesome, thanks for the lead, Dave...this place is great !!

 

Another book that includes a couple of excellent chapters on the use of gold and silver coins in the US in the mid-19th century is The Treasure Ship SS Brother Jonathan by Q. David Bowers.

 

Remember reading about them when I bought my SS Central America coin. Thanks again !

 

Also, I wrote a chapter on the use of gold coins in commerce in the 19th century for Gold Coins of the New Orleans Mint: 1839-1909 by Douglas Winter. Major portions of this book, including my chapter, are available to be viewed for free on Google Books.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out and maybe even buy it.

 

If you're interested in contemporary 19th century sources, there's a ton of material on Google Books. Banking was something that was very much learned on the job, so there were a lot of "how-to" books written in the 19th century. One of my favorites is The Banks of New-York, Their Dealers, The Clearing House, and the Panic of 1857 by J.S. Gibbons (1859). I'm not sure that this is on Google Books, however, as I have a copy of the 1968 reprint and haven't needed to look for it.

 

As you inferred, my main interest is post-Civil War and especially closer to and past 1900. But what you cite should still be interesting and I will check it out -- thanks !!!

 

There are, however, many similar books, as well as a plethora of books examining the "money question" and Bi-metallism that were written in the later 19th century. There's also a lot of books that have been written in the past 60 years or so that focus on banking history or the history of commerce or that discuss the memoirs and letters of various merchants. All of these have a lot of useful information in them, sometimes in the text, and sometimes in the footnotes and bibliography.

 

This is unreal: I may be doing more reading/research for ENJOYMENT on these topics than I did when I was studying it in college !!!

 

As far as who's publishing the material on the post-1933 gold seizures, Roger publishes the Journal of Numismatic Research (which is available from Wizard Coin Supply). I expect that's where you'll see it when it has been published.

 

Another source to check out -- you've been great with all the leads, again, mucho thanks !! (thumbs u

[DaveG]

GoldFinger,

 

I'm sure you've read A Monetary History of the United States, 1867-1960 by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz. (I have not - at least so far - because it's beyond my main time period of interest.)

 

For an overall look at the earlier period, there's Banks and Politics in America from the Revolution to the Civil War by Bray Hammond.

 

Albert Bolles wrote an excellent three-volume monetary history of the US in 1885; the last volume covers 1861-1885.

 

Also, the excellent series of books that came out of the National Monetary Commission hearings in 1910 are on Google Books. You usually have to know the titles to find them, however.

 

That's one good thing about the modern books - they usually have excellent bibliographies, so you can then go find the 19th century and early 20th century references on Google Books!

 

edited to add: Another great book is Roger's From Mine to Mint, which is also available from Wizard Coin Supply. It primarily focuses on mint history and processes, but also talks about gold shipments and many other things. Plus, Roger always has excellent footnotes and bibliographies.

 

By the way, if you're an ANA member, Wizard will give you a 5% discount.

[GoldFinger1969]

2nd Saint ? I have a lead on a 1927 Saint Gaudens. Really wasn't looking to get another 1920's common, I think I mentioned on these Forums I was looking at the 1911-D or 1914-S.

 

But it's an MS-65 so I'm giving it some thought.

 

Any 1927 Saint afficionados out here with any thoughts ?

[mkman123]

I would love to own a saint...hmmmm maybe time to sell some stuff!

[CSdot]

Depends on what they want to charge for that 27?

[GoldFinger1969]

Depends on what they want to charge for that 27?

 

$2100 but now sales tax may be a dealbreaker.

[CSdot]

Fortunately my state doesn't have sales tax on coins, yet. I heard a rumor that someone in my state's legislator was discussing it, along without revenue raising ideas. Ugh!

 

A PCGS stabbed 1927 in MS65, but $2,100 plus tax seems a little steep, but it is less than they go for on eBay. Cheapest Buy It Now PCGS MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,281.76. Cheapest Buy It Now NGC MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,074, and there are 4 at that price.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Fortunately my state doesn't have sales tax on coins, yet. I heard a rumor that someone in my state's legislator was discussing it, along without revenue raising ideas. Ugh!

 

A PCGS stabbed 1927 in MS65, but $2,100 plus tax seems a little steep, but it is less than they go for on eBay. Cheapest Buy It Now PCGS MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,281.76. Cheapest Buy It Now NGC MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,074, and there are 4 at that price.

 

Those are pretty high prices, but you have to remember the minimum 9% cost to the dealer on ebay/paypal. At the $2000 level that adds $180 plus shipping. I had one PCGS gem that had pvc or putty issues, it had to go through PCGS' "restoration", came back in the holder. Listed it and sold on ebay, the woman when it arrived said that she thought it was overgraded, etc. probably hoping I would rebate some $$, I said she should just return it for refund. There was nothing wrong with the coin. There are many Saints that look a little overgraded, but consider there are so many factors that go into grading. 64s and 63s are better buys if you can find nice ones.

[CSdot]

Fortunately my state doesn't have sales tax on coins, yet. I heard a rumor that someone in my state's legislator was discussing it, along without revenue raising ideas. Ugh!

 

A PCGS stabbed 1927 in MS65, but $2,100 plus tax seems a little steep, but it is less than they go for on eBay. Cheapest Buy It Now PCGS MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,281.76. Cheapest Buy It Now NGC MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,074, and there are 4 at that price.

 

Those are pretty high prices, but you have to remember the minimum 9% cost to the dealer on ebay/paypal. At the $2000 level that adds $180 plus shipping. I had one PCGS gem that had pvc or putty issues, it had to go through PCGS' "restoration", came back in the holder. Listed it and sold on ebay, the woman when it arrived said that she thought it was overgraded, etc. probably hoping I would rebate some $$, I said she should just return it for refund. There was nothing wrong with the coin. There are many Saints that look a little overgraded, but consider there are so many factors that go into grading. 64s and 63s are better buys if you can find nice ones.

 

I have never purchased a coin on one of the national coin auction companies. What does a Heritage type Auction Company charge, and is that charge paid by the buyer or the seller?

[Nutmeg Coin]

The standard buyer premium is around 17.5% at large auction companies. Great Collections is 10%. They may be one of the best bets for generic $20s in MS. Going to significant coin shows is one of the best options.

[AnkurJ]

Congrats on your first Saint! They are truly amazing coins, and when you see a high relief, you will fall in love.

 

As for the grade on this example. Based on the images provided, I don't agree that is a MS65. I personally feel it is closer to a 64.

[GoldFinger1969]

Fortunately my state doesn't have sales tax on coins, yet. I heard a rumor that someone in my state's legislator was discussing it, along without revenue raising ideas. Ugh!

 

I should have asked some of the dealers at the Westchester Show, but as I understand it in New York State:

 

(1) No sales tax on bullion over $1,000

 

(2) Bullion defined as 30% over spot price (so you can buy some numismatics).

 

Now that I think about it, I don't think I paid sales tax on the 2 MS-70 Silver Eagles I purchased at the Show which were over a 30% premium to silver...but maybe the tax was already included in the price, dunno.

 

A PCGS stabbed 1927 in MS65, but $2,100 plus tax seems a little steep, but it is less than they go for on eBay. Cheapest Buy It Now PCGS MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,281.76. Cheapest Buy It Now NGC MS65 1927 currently on eBay is $2,074, and there are 4 at that price.

 

I've made most of my purchases in NYS and not NJ (or PA). Totally forgot that NJ charged sales tax on all coins apparently. A few dealers I visited had outstanding inventory and even some very competitive pricing -- but then the sales tax is going to change the equations from A BIT CHEAPER or even A BIT MORE EXPENSIVE to WAY MORE EXPENSIVE.

 

$100-$300 extra on a coin might not matter if bullion goes up 5-fold or if the coin appreciates 300% but right now it's one big PITA.

[GoldFinger1969]

The standard buyer premium is around 17.5% at large auction companies. Great Collections is 10%. They may be one of the best bets for generic $20s in MS. Going to significant coin shows is one of the best options.

 

I hope to be in a position to work with an auction house on some premium coins in the future, finances permitting.

[GoldFinger1969]

Congrats on your first Saint! They are truly amazing coins, and when you see a high relief, you will fall in love.

Thanks ! (thumbs u

 

As for the grade on this example. Based on the images provided, I don't agree that is a MS65. I personally feel it is closer to a 64.

If I ever decide to sell it, please stay away from the potential buyer.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger,

 

In my experience, at a coin show, the sales tax (if any) is included in the price the dealer quotes you, not added to it, as I've had happen in some coin shops.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger, In my experience, at a coin show, the sales tax (if any) is included in the price the dealer quotes you, not added to it, as I've had happen in some coin shops.

 

Thanks Dave.....I guess that's what happened. Most of my small-time Ebay purchases have also been sans sales tax, except for 1 or 2 where I didn't notice the seller was from NYS.

 

I'm going to Google or do some research on how most states treat bullion and/or numismatic coin sales. The NYS law seems anacrhonistic since the state taxes everything that moves. I have to believe the law is from decades ago when NYS was the leader in gold/precious metals sales, maybe dating back to the 1970's. The NYC jewelry lobby may have convinced the usual tax-and-spenders to create the exemption.

 

When you think about it, sales tax on bullion is really unfair -- you wouldn't pay it on a financial transaction, even GLD (the gold ETF, which is basically bullion).

 

If coin buyers and numismatists joined forces, I bet they could get some relieve in most states.

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's the applicable NYS law -- seems it was passed in 1989. May have been changes since to raise the gold threshold to 30% and to allow Kruggerands to be eligible:

 

http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/memos/sales/m89_20s.pdf

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here are a bunch of $20 gold coins that sold at GC recently: http://www.greatcollections.com/CoinPrices/21/Gold-Double-Eagles

 

Some gem Saints sold for around $1900 including auction premium.

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Nut....it's interesting to see the TOTAL cost for these auctions reflect market price (the actual selling price seems below, but then it's brought up with the commission).....opposite of Ebay where the price is usually way above market because of the selling fees.

 

It's a combination of familiarity, ease of use, and popularity with Ebay that probably accounts for the discrepancy.

[DaveG]

If coin buyers and numismatists joined forces, I bet they could get some relieve in most states.

 

 

Look here: ICTA

[GoldFinger1969]

If coin buyers and numismatists joined forces, I bet they could get some relieve in most states.Look here: ICTA

 

Awesome, thanks Dave ! (thumbs u

[DaveG]

Also here: Coin World article on ICTA

[GoldFinger1969]

Thoughts On This MS-65 1927 ? Can't tell what year(s) the holder is from -- 2nd generation PCGS holder ? -- but the grade looks OK for the coin based on my neophyte eyes.

 

Feedback from you vets is much appreciated.

 

[CSdot]

The coin has nice luster. There eagle and the upper field on the revers look great. Lady liberty and the right hand field look great. I can't tell from the photo if the chatter on the field on left hand side of the obverse is on the coin or on the plastic. Same with the marks on the sun and the lower portions of the rays on the reverse.

 

Any chance we can get more pictures?

[GoldFinger1969]

The coin has nice luster. There eagle and the upper field on the revers look great. Lady liberty and the right hand field look great. I can't tell from the photo if the chatter on the field on left hand side of the obverse is on the coin or on the plastic. Same with the marks on the sun and the lower portions of the rays on the reverse.

I am pretty sure that those are 'scuff marks' on the left obverse field. Similar to the ones on my 1924 Saint.

 

Any chance we can get more pictures?

E-mailed my friend to send more but if you double-click on the pictures they expand nicely and are pretty detailed and big.

[GoldFinger1969]

I can get coin cheaper.....had my price confused with another coin or he gave me the wrong prices. Looks like I can get the 1927 MS-65 for about $1,900.

 

Think I'm gonna move on it, even though I am probably overstretching myself.

[CSdot]

$1,900 sounds like a reasonable price to me.

[BillJones]

For what it's worth here is a 1927 double eagle, graded MS-65, with a green CAC sticker.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Bill.....I'll show closeup pics of my 1927 when I get it. Would appreciate your comments, pro or con. You too, CS !

 

P.S. That is a beautiful MS65 1927....can see why it got that CAC green sticker. Mines not quite in that league but finances played a part in what I could buy. Hopefully, you fellas give it a thumbs-up later today.