My 1st St. Gaudens Purchase

[GoldFinger1969]

eIt's a 13 million pixel close-up on my PC taken with a Galaxy S4.

You are right, I didn't click

thanks for the lesson

 

Glad to help, a modern miracle: I actually helped someone out with a computer problem !!!

 

Bill Gates, eat your heart out !!

[RWB]

Three (3) books:

 

1905-1908 gold coin designs by Satint-Gaudens and Pratt;

1909-1915 minor coin designs by Brenner and Fraser, plus PPIE commems;

1916-1921 silver coin designs dime through dollar.

 

Detailed research and mostly never before published info; lots of source citations, etc.

[GoldFinger1969]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

[MarkFeld]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

 

I think you might be doing yourself a disservice if you decide ahead of time, which date to pursue. That could severely and unnecessarily limit your options.

 

Instead, let the (right) coin come to you and impress you with its appearance. Let it call out to you and make you want to own it.

 

 

[zboyle04]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

 

I think you might be doing yourself a disservice if you decide ahead of time, which date to pursue. That could severely and unnecessarily limit your options.

 

Instead, let the (right) coin come to you and impress you with its appearance. Let it call out to you and make you want to own it.

 

 

agreed, i like doing that

[DaveG]

I recommend you wait to pick a next coin until you've read Bowers' Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins and see which coin "calls your name."

[GoldFinger1969]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

I think you might be doing yourself a disservice if you decide ahead of time, which date to pursue. That could severely and unnecessarily limit your options.Instead, let the (right) coin come to you and impress you with its appearance. Let it call out to you and make you want to own it.

 

Thanks Mark (and Zboyle and Dave G !), that is good advice and I do intend to incorporate it into my decision-making even if I didn't say it explicitly. Have been doing lots of reading for months (awaiting Bowers and the other books referenced) so as not to rush into anything and regret a purchase (another reason to focus on the lower-cost coins first. ).

 

That said...given my parameters above, if aesthetic appearance and most other major qualities are equal, are there any particular ones you would say "be on the look out for..." given my 2 dollar-limit parameters ?

 

Obviously, I have a bunch of years for both the $2,000 and $3,500 limit that I can select from. Are there any that STAND OUT right off the top ?

 

Letting the coin come to me is what I did with the St. Gaudens. I want to get other types as well, but I was on the lookout for a 1924 (affordable in the MS65 range) and saw one that looked really nice. So I grabbed it and probably will spend most of my future purchases in 2014 on the Saints, worrying about Liberty's and bullion coins for down-the-line.

 

But for now, I'm doing most of my research/looking on St. Gaudens so I just figured I'd ask if there was any 1 or 2 years or strikes that stand out among you veterans out there. Thanks !

[MarkFeld]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

I think you might be doing yourself a disservice if you decide ahead of time, which date to pursue. That could severely and unnecessarily limit your options.Instead, let the (right) coin come to you and impress you with its appearance. Let it call out to you and make you want to own it.

 

...That said...given my parameters above, if aesthetic appearance and most other major qualities are equal, are there any particular ones you would say "be on the look out for..." given my 2 dollar-limit parameters ?

 

Obviously, I have a bunch of years for both the $2,000 and $3,500 limit that I can select from. Are there any that STAND OUT right off the top ?

 

Letting the coin come to me is what I did with the St. Gaudens. I want to get other types as well, but I was on the lookout for a 1924 (affordable in the MS65 range) and saw one that looked really nice. So I grabbed it and probably will spend most of my future purchases in 2014 on the Saints, worrying about Liberty's and bullion coins for down-the-line.

 

But for now, I'm doing most of my research/looking on St. Gaudens so I just figured I'd ask if there was any 1 or 2 years or strikes that stand out among you veterans out there. Thanks !

 

1923-D, 1927 or 1928.

[GoldFinger1969]

1923-D, 1927 or 1928.

 

Awesome, thanks Mark.....I had the 1927 and 1928 among my circle but not the 1923-D. I'll do some more reading on that strike.

[CSdot]

That's a beautiful coin! Plus, it has an ever so slight die rotation. I have notice that some years (eg. 1920) put out more rotated dies than others.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

That's a beautiful coin! Plus, it has an ever so slight die rotation. I have notice that some years (eg. 1920) put out more rotated dies than others.

 

Thanks, despite collecting coins for over 40 years I only have recently re-immersed myself in the lingo and depth so "die rotation" is something I have to look up. But appreciate the compliment !!

 

Like I said, I felt for my first Saint, even though I had done a few months of research/reading, I should get a more popular year (lower cost) and also buy it from someone I knew. I felt that was important -- my 2nd and subsequent ones, after I do more reading of the books, I might go with a coin show or online coin.

 

I'll try and take a picture with natural sunlight and see if that eliminates the shadows/dark blotches on the OP pics.

 

What really irks me is that my mother's parents/grandparents had LOTS of the St. Gaudens but they turned them in when FDR announced the gold ban. They didn't even think to hold 1 or 2 and/or bury one in the yard or something like that. As they were immigrants, they feared for what might happen to them or their children if they were caught so they totally complied. I wonder if there were any studies which looked into how many people held back some coins (besides collectors, who were given an exemption).

 

Damn !!!

[CSdot]

I do think it would be cool, albeit not financially prudent, if my Saints were not in slabs so I could stack them up, use them to play poker with my friends, and basically handle them as I might have in the 1920s.

 

Maybe if gold drops back down to $300/ounce?

[ComicConnoisseur]

Just curious for your suggestions for a 2nd Saint Coin: If I decide to move on a second Saint Gaudens coin, what year/strike would you recommend if I decided to spend about what I did on the 1924 (say, $2,000) or another year if I was willing to go up to $3,500 or so ?? Figure same MS 65 rating or thereabouts.

 

I think you might be doing yourself a disservice if you decide ahead of time, which date to pursue. That could severely and unnecessarily limit your options.

 

Instead, let the (right) coin come to you and impress you with its appearance. Let it call out to you and make you want to own it.

Great advice!

[ComicConnoisseur]

I know it's a plentiful year supply-wise and nothing much special but I liked the MS rating on this 1924 and it was from a local dealer. Didn't want my 1st purchase to be online or via pictures.

 

May have overpaid a bit but it shows decent luster. Some scratches but wear appears minimal and knees, hair, mouth, fingers on torch, and eagle feathers all OK.

 

I was looking at this coin or a similar MS65 for over 2 years, so with gold falling almost 30% in that time, I think I saved about the same (maybe a bit less) by waiting on the Saint.

 

Comments, criticisms, congratulations -- all welcome.

 

Good coin.

(thumbs u

[GoldFinger1969]

I do think it would be cool, albeit not financially prudent, if my Saints were not in slabs so I could stack them up, use them to play poker with my friends, and basically handle them as I might have in the 1920s. Maybe if gold drops back down to $300/ounce?

 

Gold drops that low, you call me with some offers on your coins BEFORE the poker game starts, CS !!!

 

Although if gold drops that low, I think most people will be looking for canned goods instead of gold coins !!!

[GoldFinger1969]

Good coin. (thumbs u

Thanks CC !!! I'm very happy.....gonna spend a few weeks reading threads here and my books (whenever they arrive......) to get more detail to make informed purchases down the line.

 

Glad I found this forum, you have all been very helpful with suggestions and comments, thanks ! (thumbs u

[CSdot]

Have you started your registry set yet? Are you planning on a gold (or other) type set, or working on a series? Is it under goldfinger1969?

[GoldFinger1969]

Have you started your registry set yet? Are you planning on a gold (or other) type set, or working on a series? Is it under goldfinger1969?

 

If the registry is something specific to this website/Forum, I haven't done it yet -- but will. Still haven't figured out how to upload an avatar !!

 

I literally found this forum in the last week or so....still navigating around and learning. I probably should look for a FIRSTTIMERS READ THIS thread or something....

[GoldFinger1969]

Historical Fact: In the WYNTK thread on the Saint Gaudens coins, the OP mentioned that the Double Eagles (both the Saints and presumably earlier coins) were the 'workhorses' for settling international payments under the gold standard. I decided to do a little research on this as I used to work as an economist.

 

There were about 70 million of the Saints produced from 1927-32; obviously, there were only about 1/2 that amount (or less) available to settle debts for most of the 1907-32 period. So you had anywhere from 10,000,000 - 40,000,000 available for most of the 1907-1924 period.

 

The trade SURPLUS was normally about $500 million on an annual basis, or about $30-$50 million monthly. Only during the World War 1 years did it spike to the $3-$5 billion annual basis (the U.S. exported alot of materials to the Allies).

 

So.....with a $20 face value, you would need at least 1-2 million of the Saints to facilitate balancing the trade accounts on a monthly basis. When the surplus exploded during World War 1, the amount was quite larger: you could need 15-20 million $20 face value coins to balance the books. Clearly, the earlier Liberty Double Eagles were still around to help facilitate this balancing act.

 

Anyway, I thought this was interesting because the 1924 I purchased had large volumes stored overseas in Central Bank and bank vaults, probably as a result of the war reparations payments and other dealings. It wasn't until the start of the Depression that countries began to abandon the Gold Standard or loosen monetary policy and try and print their way out of trouble from the restrictions imposed by gold (something Europe is learning the last few years with the Euro).

[RWB]

The "Historical Fact" isn't.

 

After completion of the transatlantic cable, large settlements were made by bank balance transfers, letters of credit and earmarking of gold. Although several million dollars a month left the US (and entered from other countries), it was a minor part of total commercial settlements. Eagles and double eagles were exported in large quantities, but this was done by smaller traders. The mercantile preference was always for 0.999 gold bars – these were easier, cheaper and safer to transport than coins.

 

[Learn more in the book From Mine to Mint. ]

 

Further, countries came and went from the "gold standard" and printed inflationary paper currency regardless of any gold standard in operation. See the 19th century economic histories of Italy and Austria for example.

[GoldFinger1969]

The "Historical Fact" isn't. After completion of the transatlantic cable, large settlements were made by bank balance transfers, letters of credit and earmarking of gold. Although several million dollars a month left the US (and entered from other countries), it was a minor part of total commercial settlements. Eagles and double eagles were exported in large quantities, but this was done by smaller traders. The mercantile preference was always for 0.999 gold bars – these were easier, cheaper and safer to transport than coins.[Learn more in the book From Mine to Mint. ]

Further, countries came and went from the "gold standard" and printed inflationary paper currency regardless of any gold standard in operation. See the 19th century economic histories of Italy and Austria for example.

 

This is true, but it doesn't make what I said false. They were both means of settling the balance of payments flows.

 

Many times, the Bank of England would have the gold on the docks, ready to ship, if the account wasn't settled by other means (telegraph transfer, offsetting debits, etc.).

 

And the U.S. was in SURPLUS during this time -- gold would have FLOWED IN. The fact that many Double Eagles ended up overseas would indicate that something else was at work. Among these was the belief that U.S. gold coins were safer/better than European coins, even British ones.

 

So it wasn't simply a question of Double Eagles being used to settle the merchandise balance of trade (which wasn't in deficit)....it's just that there were other demands for U.S. currency as the world was moving away from the Bank of England and towards the United States and the Federal Reserve (1914).

[RWB]

This statement: "...the Double Eagles (both the Saints and presumably earlier coins) were the 'workhorses' for settling international payments under the gold standard," is incorrect and distorts the use of gold coin in international trade.

 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

This statement: "...the Double Eagles (both the Saints and presumably earlier coins) were the 'workhorses' for settling international payments under the gold standard," is incorrect and distorts the use of gold coin in international trade.

 

Well, I guess that's true....the OP probably cited it from somewhere. I think the Liberty Double Eagles and gold bars probably did the heavy lifting in the late-1800's and early-1900's.

 

My main point was to show that the volume of the coins outstanding after a few years of mintage could make a dent in such a transfer mechanism. Today, even with gold 60x higher, you'd need much more mintage.

 

2 million St. Gaudens could equalize 1 month of surplus/deficit, but today you'd need 36 million Eagles/Buffalo's to do the same work.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

I'm glad to hear that you're interested in the economics side of numismatics, as the history of finance and commerce is one of my main research/writing interests.

 

It's difficult to generalize about international transfers during the 1849-1933 period, because there were a lot of factors affecting gold shipments. (The main purposes of gold exports were to pay for imports and to pay international creditors. As you probably know, the US was a big importer of capital during the 19th century.) Financial panics (such as the Panic of 1893) also had major impacts on the flow of gold, both out of, and into, the US.

 

It's true that from 1849-1854, double eagles were the workhorses for settling international payments, which is why so few Type I Coronet double eagles survive - so many of them were exported and melted fairly soon after they were minted.

 

Once the New York Assay Office opened in 1854, it began producing gold bars for export, which were preferred over double eagles - less wear on gold in transit and much less to count.

 

As Roger indicated, as communications improved, there was less need to transfer physical gold and, it was always easier and cheaper to substitute credit instruments and bookkeeping entries.

 

Also, as Roger indicated and as you should know, the European belligerents essentially left the Gold Standard in 1914 to finance WWI. In addition, as Roger has demonstrated, the US made serious efforts to restrict the flow of gold during the WWI period.

 

Many times, the Bank of England would have the gold on the docks, ready to ship, if the account wasn't settled by other means (telegraph transfer, offsetting debits, etc.).

 

I'm very interested in this statement and would be very interested to learn of any information you have that supports this statement. My impression is that the Bank of England didn't actually make gold transfers, but instead, this was a function of commercial banks and other merchants.

 

Among these was the belief that U.S. gold coins were safer/better than European coins, even British ones.

 

I'm also very interested in this statement, as I've never read anything to suggest that US gold coins were held in higher regard that British or other European coins. As you may know, the various national mints regularly melted and assayed the gold coins of other countries that they received. I'd be very interested to learn of any information you know of that supports this statement.

 

For anyone who is interested, one of the most available books that touches on gold shipments (and a great place to start) is Bowers' A Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins. Bowers includes sections that discuss how the double eagles were used during each major period and also includes a portion of the 1875 Monetary Conference documents that report the experience of the Belgian mint in assaying US gold coins.

 

edited to add: Also, the Annual Reports of the Director of the Mint and the Annual Reports of the Secretary of the Treasury from this period contain a lot of information on the glow of gold into and out of the country. As you can imagine, during the Gold Standard era, the flow of gold was of great interest to the political and financial leadership of the country. These reports are pretty much all available on the Internet.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, I'm glad to hear that you're interested in the economics side of numismatics, as the history of finance and commerce is one of my main research/writing interests.

 

Thanks Dave....I used to be an economist so I have read my share of financial and economic treatises. I agree with most of your points....as far as your questions:

 

 

Many times, the Bank of England would have the gold on the docks, ready to ship, if the account wasn't settled by other means (telegraph transfer, offsetting debits, etc.). I'm very interested in this statement and would be very interested to learn of any information you have that supports this statement. My impression is that the Bank of England didn't actually make gold transfers, but instead, this was a function of commercial banks and other merchants.

 

Whether it was the BOE or London banks at the authorization of the BOE I can't honestly remember. But I can tell you that London being near water helped facilitate quicker trade in gold.

 

The big thing was that Britain refused to devalue the pound sterling after World War 1. They wanted to defend Pax Britannica and the BOE dominant role in global finance when it was the United States and the Federal Reserve who were the new Big Boys on the Block. They defended their currency and British currency dominance at the cost of maintaining high interest rates/strong pound and this would later lead to Britain exiting the Depression much later than other countries which devalued much sooner (GB did devalue the pound in 1931 I believe but they were already in a slump for years before that; there was NO 'Roaring Twenties' in Great Britain).

 

Among these was the belief that U.S. gold coins were safer/better than European coins, even British ones. I'm also very interested in this statement, as I've never read anything to suggest that US gold coins were held in higher regard that British or other European coins. As you may know, the various national mints regularly melted and assayed the gold coins of other countries that they received. I'd be very interested to learn of any information you know of that supports this statement.

 

It's anectdotal but pretty much common fare in many books and on the Web where I've read. I can tell you as the grandchild of immigrants I can say that my family preferred U.S. coins when they lived overseas. They trusted the amount of gold vs. their own and other European countries and they also thought that a country could 'call' their own coins (but if the U.S. called back double eagles, they had the Atlantic Ocean as a buffer zone ). Unfortunately, when my ancestors came over here, they handed them over thanks to FDR.

 

Studying the time this country was on the Gold Standard or the Quasi-Gold standard under Bretton Wood as well as the Gold vs. Silver fights of the late-1800's (William Jennings Bryan, etc.) really is fascinating. It's one of the reasons I love gold and silver coins from that era.

[CSdot]

Goldfinger,

 

Thanks for the history lesson. It is very interesting to read about.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger,

 

Thanks for your quick reply.

 

It sounds like we're talking about different time periods regarding the BoE gold shipments. My main interest is really pre-1879, with an emphasis on the 1836-1860 period. I do recall that the UK went on the Gold Exchange Standard (I think) from the Gold Standard and then finally left the Gold Standard entirely in 1931, I think.

 

My main reading doesn't really cover whether individual people preferred US gold coins over any other. However, I understand that the French were partial to 20 Franc pieces (up until the 1960s or later) and the Greeks were partial to sovereigns (up until at least WWII). I wouldn't have thought that individual Europeans would have been familiar with US gold coins until at least after WWI.

 

If you come across any references that support individual preferences, please do let me know.

[RWB]

British sovereigns and various 20 Fr coins were the most commonly held in Europe and elsewhere. South American governments held about equal British and US gold. This is based on examination of continental banking records, the Bank of England and samples of gold looted from banks during WW-II.

 

The Bank of England was the informal "market maker" during the gold standard era and helped maintain the gold point. The Bank of France and the New York Clearing house Association also participated.

 

Note that the quantity of gold surrendered by US citizens from 1933 forward was far smaller than "gold bugs" and other extremists claim. The data and analysis will be published in a few months.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

British sovereigns and various 20 Fr coins were the most commonly held in Europe and elsewhere. South American governments held about equal British and US gold. This is based on examination of continental banking records, the Bank of England and samples of gold looted from banks during WW-II. The Bank of England was the informal "market maker" during the gold standard era and helped maintain the gold point. The Bank of France and the New York Clearing house Association also participated.

 

Interesting.....I am pretty sure that there aren't any books (at least I haven't seen any) talking about how various gold (or silver) coins have been used in the actual commerce of daily life. More of a macro-POV.

 

You probably have to stitch together little snippets here and there from various books to find out what we are talking about OR talk to actual people who lived at that time. Probably need someone's grandparents who were born about 1900 through 1915 at the latest, someone who would have been earning money and/or buying stuff in the 1920's. I wish I had asked my grandfather about this period when he was alive.

 

Note that the quantity of gold surrendered by US citizens from 1933 forward was far smaller than "gold bugs" and other extremists claim. The data and analysis will be published in a few months.

 

Should be interesting....who is publishing it ? I know members of my family turned in their Double Eagles. And unless you were well-off (or at least comfortably middle-class) if you had a bunch of gold coins you had to be willing to 'eat their cost' if you saved them since you couldn't use them for $10 or $20 transactions.

 

A poor person or working stiff with 5 Double Eagles would likely turn them in because that would be $100 he or she wouldn't have access to once the gold ban went into effect. The rich could afford to take the loss, but with the Depression in full effect, most people couldn't or wouldn't.

[RWB]

There was no dollar loss to the "working stiff." (Domestic speculators and hoarders lost their potential profit by being prevented from exporting their gold.)

 

The initial difference after April 1933 was that gold coins did not circulate and that the world market price of gold jumped to about $29.00/T oz. Gold coins were still accepted as legal tender until August 1933 (under Exec Orders) and Feb 1, 1934 under the Gold Act. Coins that could be shown to have been outside the US as of Feb 1932 were treated like bullion after 1934 and the owners were paid $35.00/T oz. Domestic gold coins were exchanged at face value until 1974, but most of that ended in 1947 as a practical matter.

 

PS: There are hundreds of scholarly articles on gold and European economic practices. Some in English but most are in German and French. They will not be found with simple google searches. Look in the research journals of the day. South American central bank information was published and is available almost exclusively in Spanish. JSTOR is a good place to start searching. The FRS has a huge economic library in Washington DC – they love research visitors!