Bellows - large coin issues

[mikew148]

I have my new Nikon Bellows and it works great. However, I'm having an issue with large coins (Morgan Dollars) This is as much of the Morgan Dollar as I can get in the frame.

 

 

This setup works great for Half Dollars and smaller, Here's a half dollar -

 

 

These images are exactly what I see through the lens - no cropping or editing.

 

So my question is - Can I get a full Morgan Dollar image with the following setup?

 

I have a Nikon D3100 camera > Nikon adapter which screws onto bellows with 4 small screws > Nikon II Bellows > M42 -Nikon adapter ring > APO Rodagon-D 75mm f/4 lens.

 

Here's a picture of everything except the camera (had to use it to take this pic!)

 

 

I'm hoping someone can help so I can capture full images of these nice Morgans I recently picked up.

 

Thanks - Mike

 

 

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

I have the same problem with my extension tubes that I use sometimes. I also use a D3100 with my setup as well. I usually have to raise my camera higher on my copy stand if I'm in the middle of shooting and do not want to stop to remove the extension tubes. Depending on what kind of lenses you are using, you shouldn't have to use the bellows with large coins like the Morgan Dollars unless you want to focus in on a small area of the coin.

[mikew148]

I have the same problem with my extension tubes that I use sometimes. I also use a D3100 with my setup as well. I usually have to raise my camera higher on my copy stand if I'm in the middle of shooting and do not want to stop to remove the extension tubes. Depending on what kind of lenses you are using, you shouldn't have to use the bellows with large coins like the Morgan Dollars unless you want to focus in on a small area of the coin.

 

The lens will only attach to the camera with a bellows or extension tube. The lens sticks in past the part that attaches to the camera. Look at photo above, the part of the lens with the smallest diameter is the part that would enter the camera body and interfere with the inner parts.

 

I think there's a way to do it by adding an extension on the camera side of the bellows and then raising the entire assembly.

 

There's one guy that has done a lot of work with these setups and I'm hoping he'll chime in.

 

Ray ( rmpsrpms ) are you out there?

[rmpsrpms]

The problem you're having is that the minimum extension you can achieve with your bellows is too long to get low enough magnification for Dollars. It's a classic issue I face all the time when putting setups together for folks. It looks like you're very close to making it work, but not quite there. You have a few options:

 

1) Get a bellows with a bit shorter minimum extension

2) Get a longer lens (though quality will suffer vs your 75ARD1)

3) Change to Canon camera, they have shorter register distance

4) Use extension tubes instead of bellows for bigger coins

 

I built a setup for a guy a couple weeks ago that worked well with my Canon camera, but he already had a Nikon and I couldn't get it to work for him for Dollars. I had to change the lens to an 80mm. Yep, just 5mm makes a huge difference when you're close to making it work already. The 75ARD1 looked about like your Dollar shot, but with the 80mm he can now photograph ASE's or even fairly large medals.

 

Ray

 

Edited to add...using the 80mm (actually, you would be safest getting a 105mm...) only for Dollar shots is an option, and the 75ARD1 for everything else. A 105mm will likely allow you to take full slab shots. I would highly recommend the 105mm EL-Nikkor if you choose to go that way. It's not too expensive, and will give you excellent results on Dollars, slabs, large medals, etc). This is one of the advantages you have with the bellows setup, ie you can pick the right lens for the job without having to spend a huge amount.

[mikew148]

Thanks Ray, I knew you would have some answers!

 

I don't really want to lose the focusing ability of the bellows by switching to extension rings.

 

How much shorter would my bellows need to be?

 

I can see that there's room to cut this one down and the bellows feels like it could compact a bit more.

 

1/4", 1/2"...more?

[rmpsrpms]

Thanks Ray, I knew you would have some answers!

 

I don't really want to lose the focusing ability of the bellows by switching to extension rings.

 

How much shorter would my bellows need to be?

 

I can see that there's room to cut this one down and the bellows feels like it could compact a bit more.

 

1/4", 1/2"...more?

 

I agree with you on the extension rings.

 

Judging by where you are with the dollar, I think you need to shorten the system by 2-3mm to make it work.

 

I also added to my previous post...consider using a 80mm or better yet 105mm lens for Dollars if you are not able to make the bellows short enough to frame a Dollar...

 

Ray

[mikew148]

Love it when a man knows his stuff! Awesome Ray - (thumbs u

 

I'll be in my shop trying to make this bellows work, I think I can get 3mm. Maybe I'll try for a little more so I only have to cut it once!

 

Back up plan - 105mm

 

Thanks - Mike

 

[rmpsrpms]

Excellent...post again when you have the results...Ray

[mikew148]

Ray, you are the MAN!

 

Going off of your explanation that the bellows minimum extension was too long, I started looking at all possible ways to shorten the distance from the camera to the lens. The factory mounted adapter that was held in with 4 screws came right out once I removed them. Better still, there are threads on the inside of the bellows. Replacing that adapter with a lens reversing ring was the difference in length of this (left) to this (right).

 

 

You were right, just a few mm's was all it took. The Morgan Dollar image now looks like this and I didn't have to chop up my bellows!!!

 

 

My new lights should be here any day! Jansjo's, sound familiar? Brandon ( brg5658 ) gave me a tip. He's pretty good at this coin photography stuff too

 

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Ray, it made the difference

 

 

 

[RWB]

Very nice photo of the Morgan dollar!

[rmpsrpms]

Nice Dollar image!

 

Glad I could help getting the setup to work. I wasn't sure how you were going to make it work but the reversing ring looks to be a great solution.

 

I expect you'll like the Jansjos. They run nice and cool and are very flexible. Brandon pointed you in the right direction!

[mikew148]

Nice Dollar image!

 

Glad I could help getting the setup to work. I wasn't sure how you were going to make it work but the reversing ring looks to be a great solution.

 

I expect you'll like the Jansjos. They run nice and cool and are very flexible. Brandon pointed you in the right direction!

 

Thanks for the compliments guys!

 

When I removed the factory mounted adapter to find recessed threads on the bellows, I knew I had something to work with.

 

I'm really liking this setup and I expect I'll like it even more when the new lights arrive. My copy stand lights are very bulky and being mounted on a 90 degree bracket makes it tough to get them in a good spot....to create proper angles. I've seen some photos of your setups, Ray, with the goose neck Jansjo's and they look to be the last piece to my lighting puzzle. I'm looking forward to being able to drop those goose necks right in along side of the lens and get them into a good position with minimal effort. (these copy stand lights have been a bit of a battle)

 

I received a notice in my PO Box that I have a package that needs to be picked up. It's either the lights or coins, that's a winner either way!

 

Thanks again Ray and stayed tuned..............

[brg5658]

Mike, I knew Ray would help you out. I shoot Canon so have a bit more wiggle room as Ray mentioned. Good to know you found a workable solution without having to get out the hacksaw. ;-)

 

The register difference seems negligible, but 2-3 mm makes a world of difference. If you have any larger coins or medals you forsee needing to shoot you may want to pick up the 105mm EL-Nikkor lens anyway just to have. Your Morgan shot looks great!

 

-Brandon

[mikew148]

Thanks Brandon, Ray had this figured out it no time! I just got back from the Post Office - No lights....but more coins One of them is perfect for checking the limit of my current setup. This 1948 5 Pesos coin has a diameter of 40mm and it looks like this is about the limit.

 

 

 

Next test - Silver Eagle at 40.6mm

 

 

 

 

[mikew148]

Here's the ASE. Either I have a little more room to play with than I thought or my eyes are getting blurry. How does the image look to you?

 

[SuperDave]

Heck, if I'd known Ray and Brandon were members over here I've have never opened this thread.

[rmpsrpms]

Your shots look good Mike. I'm not sure you're going to get a lot more out of the Jansjos, but they are worth a shot since they run so cool and are so easily adjusted. BUT...they act as very small, almost pinpoint sources so may bring out the "red and blue sparklies" if you don't diffuse them. To start with, try them bare, but look for specular overload/sparklies and if you see them you will want to do a bit of diffusion. I personally recommend one layer of kleenex (white...), and if needed two layers over each light to start with. And by the way, their color temp is close to Tungsten so you can start there, though for most accurate color a custom WB may give you better results. I find that tungsten is a good compromise, since manual WB has a fair amount of variation. At least using tungsten you know the WB will be the same on every shot, even if it is very slightly off.

 

Ray

[rmpsrpms]

Heck, if I'd known Ray and Brandon were members over here I've have never opened this thread.

 

SD...we get around...Ray

[mikew148]

Your shots look good Mike. I'm not sure you're going to get a lot more out of the Jansjos, but they are worth a shot since they run so cool and are so easily adjusted. BUT...they act as very small, almost pinpoint sources so may bring out the "red and blue sparklies" if you don't diffuse them. To start with, try them bare, but look for specular overload/sparklies and if you see them you will want to do a bit of diffusion. I personally recommend one layer of kleenex (white...), and if needed two layers over each light to start with. And by the way, their color temp is close to Tungsten so you can start there, though for most accurate color a custom WB may give you better results. I find that tungsten is a good compromise, since manual WB has a fair amount of variation. At least using tungsten you know the WB will be the same on every shot, even if it is very slightly off.

 

Ray

 

Ray,

 

I'm sure the Jansjos will at least be more "user friendly' than my current lights.

It's like a wrestling match trying to get these big copy stand lights into a good spot. The socket is built into a fixture so it adds to the bulkiness. This is what I'm fighting with. Not terrible but I think it could be better.

 

 

It would be nice to have 2 or 3 little goose necks to bend into place instead of 6 knobs and two swinging cans! Concerning the color, I think I'll let the camera and a gray card tell me what white is at first and then try the Tungsten setting if I have any issues.

 

I'll keep an eye out for those "sparklies!"

 

Thanks for the tips - Mike

 

[rrantique]

Very nice photo of the Morgan dollar!

(thumbs u

[Rayman311]

Nice shots!

[mikew148]

Turns out what I thought were threads inside the bellows are actually baffles.

The Nikon 2 bellows baffle size is close enough to 46mm threads that my reversing ring is working fine for now. Still playing with it.........