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Identification challenge

Started by GDJMSP,

15 posts in this topic

GDJMSP

GDJMSP

Posted
Posted

It's been a while since I've posted anything really, but this one ought to be fun and informative. I was hoping the title might get your attention - if it doesn't, the coin might poke2.gif

 

Now identifying the country and the province is not going to be difficult - that's the easy part. What I would like to pin down is the year 893scratchchin-thumb.gif And on a ND coin - that's the hard part wink.gif But I do believe it can be done in this case.

 

Rose%20Noble%20obv.jpg

 

Rose%20Noble%20rev.jpg

 

 

I await your opinions popcorn.gif

 

 

PS - anybody wanna take odds on who can beat truthteller to the answer ? 893whatthe.gif

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truthteller

truthteller

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Rose Noble (1/2 Noble), Utrecht, Netherlands circa 1600's. Possibly 1632-33. Appears to have a Harp mintmark, suggesting the date of issue. I had to use Seaby as a reference for the mintmark, thereby giving a date. A bit of a leap. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

 

 

TRUTH

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GDJMSP

GDJMSP

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Rose Noble (1/2 Noble), Utrecht, Netherlands circa 1600's. Possibly 1632-33. Appears to have a Harp mintmark, suggesting the date of issue. I had to use Seaby as a reference for the mintmark, thereby giving a date. A bit of a leap. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

First part is correct of course - but that mint mark is not a harp - it's a coat of arms. And I'll give a hint - Utrecht did not strike any rose nobles after 1602 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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JamminJ

JamminJ

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I'm happy to leave the question to Truth as I have absolutely no idea how to determine the date. However, it do appreciate a nice coin and that one certainly is nice!

 

-JamminJ

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GDJMSP

GDJMSP

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Date is 1579.

 

 

TRUTH

 

I knew you could do it 893applaud-thumb.gif But now I gotta ask - HOW ya did it ?

 

And no, I'm not just kiddin around. I've put a great deal of time into this coin and it wasn't easy for me to find out what I did - so I'd like to know what you found and how you found the info.

 

This is an important coin and it marks a turning point in the history of the Netherlands and I'll be more than happy to share what I think I know . I'm just hoping that you will be able to help confirm it. thumbsup2.gif

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GDJMSP

GDJMSP

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If I told you, then you might think that either I'm brilliant or I'm sneaky. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Gonna getcha for that 893naughty-thumb.gif893naughty-thumb.gif

 

Now c'mon give - finding info on this coin is hard enough as it is 893frustrated.gif

 

I'll share what I know anyway wink.gif All Utrecht Rose Nobles were struck 1600 to 1602 - except one - the 1579. And most think of the coin only being struck after formation of the United Netherlands in 1581 - but the province of Utrecht existed before that and they did strike their own coinage. In 1579 a number of the northern Netherlands signed the Union of Utrecht. The Union of Utrecht (Dutch: Unie van Utrecht) is a treaty signed on January 23, 1579 in Utrecht, the Netherlands, unifying the northern provinces of the Netherlands, until then under control of Spain. The Union of Utrecht is regarded as the foundation of the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands, which was not recognized internationally until the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 ended the Eighty Years' War.

 

Anyway - at this point I can only conclude that the striking of this coin coincided with Utrecht's declaration of independence from Spain in 1579. It makes it a rather important coin - at least in my opinion. 1/2 Rose Nobles were also struck in 1579 - but there are only two known according to Freidberg.

 

But back to what I want to know - how you determined this coin is indeed a 1579. I have searched many auction archives and so far there is only one diagnostic I can find - perhaps it is the only one. It is rather simple actually and found in the legend of the obverse. Between 4 and 6 o'clock is the word ORDIN followed by a stop on my coin. But on all of the examples in the auction archives I can find for the coins attributed as 1600/1602 - about a dozen total - this word is written as ORDINUM followed by a stop. I did find one example of a coin listed as a 1600/1602 with ORDIN. But it was in rather poor condition and I could only assume it had been misattributed.

 

So aside from the fact that the person ( a well known and highly respected dealer ) I bought this coin from attributes it as a 1579 - I was hoping that perhaps you could either confirm or deny the accuracy of my conclusion confused-smiley-013.gif

 

So whaddaya say - help me out here juggle.gif

 

 

PS - I'm leanin towards sneaky 27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gif

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JamminJ

JamminJ

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Great commentary! Just one correction: the Peace of Westphelia ended the Thirty Years' War (not eighty).

 

I've been reading a biography of Charles V and since he was originally from Barbant I may need to add a Spanish Netherlands thaler to my Hapsburg collection. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

-JamminJ

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truthteller

truthteller

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OK, I'll tell you how I found out the date 1579.

 

The Case of the No Date Rose Noble

 

Featuring Sherlock Truth Holmes

Sidekick Dr. GDJMSP Watson

 

On a gloomy and foggy moonless night, Dr. Watson receives a call from an anonymous phantom coin collector. The collector is in terrible trouble. Apparently, the collector's prize coin has been stolen and held for ransom by the evil Dr. Moriarty. The collector is panicked and in a desperate condition, since Dr. Moriarty has threatened to melt his coin if the ransom is not paid. The ransom, however, is not money, but information. Moriarty wants to know information on a gold coin, and if the information is not presented in a few hours, the coin will be destroyed. Dr. Watson scribbles the information down, and calms the collector. "No fear", says Watson, "Sherlock Truth Holmes will find the information." All the collector has to go by is a image of the reverse and obverse of a gold coin pictured on a website. The clock begins ticking.

 

Information that Holmes has:

 

Gold coin with image of king.

No date on coin.

Legend in latin

 

Holmes immediately deduces that the coin appears to be early 17th century, thereby leading him to two books, Krause and Seaby. Holmes pulls out Seaby and finds out it is a Rose Noble. However, the king has a non English flag and the legend reads "concordia" thereby giving the information that the coin is Holland. "Aha", say Holmes, we have the first clue. The coin is then refered to Krause under Holland, and subsequently Utrecht. "The puzzle begins to take shape", Holmes exclaims. Rose Noble, Utrecht, circa 1600's. Now for the date? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Holmes is stumped and the clock is ticking. He refers to Seaby using sheer deduction. Seaby refers that English Rose Nobles had mintmarks of various sorts, each refering to a specific date in time to which the coin was minted. The coin imaged on the website appears to have a harp mintmark, which is found in Seaby, thereby leading Holmes to a jump in logic, that the coin may have been minted in 1632. "Eureka", Holmes exclaims, "I may have found the answer."

 

Holmes relays the information to Dr. GDJMSP Watson, who poo-poos the information as half correct and tells Holmes that these coins were never minted in 1632. The clock is ticking and time is running out. Will the phantom collector have his coin melted by the Evil Dr. Moriarty??

 

 

 

Dr. Watson explains that it's time for tea, and so he sets himself in his favorite chair and murmurs, "crumpets and tea, googles of fun for me". Holmes turns his head, with a brilliant smile, he exclaims to Watson. "Brilliant, ah, brilliant, you have found the path to the answer". Watson, in a stunned voice, "But, what are you talking about, dear Holmes?" Holmes quickly sits himself in front of his computer and pulls up Google.com. He enters the key words, Rose Noble, Utrecht. What pops up is now childsplay. Hoping to find the answer, Holmes finds the key. www.sedwickcoins.com./030402161005.jpg

 

Holmes enters the website and finds a single Rose Noble, Utrecht, Holland. Excluding the dates 1600-1601, since he knows this cannot be the date, he finds a coin dated 1579, which so happens to be the EXACT image of the coin on the website, with wavey flan and exact identification marks. Holmes relays the information to Watson, who relays the information to the phantom collector thereby releasing the coin from Dr. Moriaty's possession.

 

Elementary, my dear Watson, elementary.

 

 

 

TRUTH

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GDJMSP

GDJMSP

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My instincts told me sneaky was the answer 27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gif

 

I just knew you were gonna tell me you found Dan's web site. But I was holding out hope you would have some info I have not run across 893frustrated.gif

 

But I gotta give it to ya truth - a very entertaining way of getting around to telling me so 893applaud-thumb.gifsign-funnypost.gif

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GDJMSP

GDJMSP

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Great commentary! Just one correction: the Peace of Westphelia ended the Thirty Years' War (not eighty).

 

I've been reading a biography of Charles V and since he was originally from Barbant I may need to add a Spanish Netherlands thaler to my Hapsburg collection. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

-JamminJ

 

Ya might wanna wait a bit on that. Next week I'll have that Charles V real d'or cloud9.gif

 

Why it might even sway you towards gold 893whatthe.gif

 

 

And thanks for the correction - I've been reading about a lot of wars lately. After a while - they all kinda run together foreheadslap.gif

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