Ways of telling a seated liberty proof coin from business strike.

[timo16]

I got this coin with a lot. At first glance I would say it was polished. After closer examination, I noticed the fields are reflective but the devices are not. Is there a way of telling if this was a proof that got into circulation besides the mirrored fields? I know I was told that part of the rim is wired but is that also present on business strikes?

[timo16]

Of course it is possible this is just an old polishing that wore down on the higher areas.

[MarkFeld]

Even if the coin were produced as a Proof, with that degree of wear, the Proof surfaces/reflectivity would no longer be apparent. Thus you are seeing evidence of cleaning or polishing.

 

Some Proof coins were struck from dies whose characteristics/markers make them distinguishable from business strike examples. That would be one way to check in some cases.

[James_OldeTowne]

I certainly don't know the 1891 in particular, but once a coin gets worn down that much, it's quite possible that any diagnostics that distinguish a proof from a circulation strike are gone.

[Coindude]

It looks like a coin that was exposed to mercury and them circulated further or has been cleaned afterward and the high spots now show the wear. I've seen silver exposed to mercury before and it has the same kind if shine.

[timo16]

Interesting, I did not know that mercury causes silver to shine like that. Silver also is reflective if you polish it. I am sure you can see yourself on a silver serving tray or pitcher although this coin looks very reflective

[crypto79-migration]

Well that is one of the great missions of seated researchers. While as Mark stated some dies have specific markers used in specific die pairs that are used to identifying proof strikings, the issue is often muddied by proof dies being put into production after their special run concluded.

 

A lot of cutting edge research centers around the collar (or 3rd die) as they often stayed with the presses and had unique reed counts that repeat over the years and the same die pairs will have different collars used when they went to the different press. Other than the body of the coin being examined which won't work on a low grade example like yours. I would say don't worry about that coin as it is only worth about melt no matter how it started life.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Well that is one of the great missions of seated researchers. While as Mark stated some dies have specific markers used in specific die pairs that are used to identifying proof strikings, the issue is often muddied by proof dies being put into production after their special run concluded.

 

A lot of cutting edge research centers around the collar (or 3rd die) as they often stayed with the presses and had unique reed counts that repeat over the years and the same die pairs will have different collars used when they went to the different press. Other than the body of the coin being examined which won't work on a low grade example like yours. I would say don't worry about that coin as it is only worth about melt no matter how it started life.

 

Could this be used to tell PL from Proof? I realize there are other ways to tell, but I haven't heard much about reed count.

[timo16]

I wouldn't say it is worth melt though since I have never seen seated coins go for melt even at the lowest grades. There is a premium even on holed and bent coins. Maybe if they are worn to practically nothing and have a hole to boot.

[crypto79-migration]

Well that is one of the great missions of seated researchers. While as Mark stated some dies have specific markers used in specific die pairs that are used to identifying proof strikings, the issue is often muddied by proof dies being put into production after their special run concluded.

 

A lot of cutting edge research centers around the collar (or 3rd die) as they often stayed with the presses and had unique reed counts that repeat over the years and the same die pairs will have different collars used when they went to the different press. Other than the body of the coin being examined which won't work on a low grade example like yours. I would say don't worry about that coin as it is only worth about melt no matter how it started life.

 

Could this be used to tell PL from Proof? I realize there are other ways to tell, but I haven't heard much about reed count.

 

Yes as it has been used on business strike coins struck with proof dies which come very PL to begin with. The problem is the research is tedious and a large sample size is needed which is hard these days as most classic coins esp proofs and PLs are in holders. Also early proofs were made in batches and can have multiple counts. It isn't always a smoking gun, just another tool in the kit. The main problem is very little research and baseline counts has ever been done and complied. One was start with a slam dunk coin and compare it to the suspect and expand the sample group and look for patterns

 

As for seated coins not being worth melt, take that dime to any dealer and a few xf Rosies and see what they pay.

[timo16]

I would not take it to a dealer to see what they would pay since sometimes they will give you a low price. Of course the silver Roosevelts would get melt or below but if I have seen dimes in worse condition sell for multiples of melt value. You can just do a completed listing search on Ebay. Just because a dealer pays something for something, doesn't make it worth that since some want a significant premium. I did a completed Ebay search and saw many worse than this sell at multiples of melt. Of course blown up this big, the coin looks a lot worse.

 

I sold an XF 1893 Morgan. One dealer claimed he would sell it for $145-$165 and wouldn't like my offer. Some coin dealer here offered me $195 but wanted the coin shipped out first and would send me a check after examining it. I told the first dealer about the offer here and told me to send it out. I heard the guy boasting about doubling his money in his sleep. I sold it on Ebay within a week with a BIN price of $220 with shipping. I probably could got more but it sold in a week.

[Coindude]

So after all the eBay and PayPal fees you got about if not less than what the dealer here offered? I know the cost of selling on eBay can be as much as 15%.

[timo16]

I got about what the dealer here offered with fees but I got paid first. I know Ebay fees can take a big chunk of what you are making. I probably could have got a little more. I know I also sold these 1921 Morgans I posted here. One was XF with a rim ding, I listed it for $31.50 with shipping and it sold in 5 minutes. I didn't really understand that, did I undercharge or something? Ebay fees just went up and now total fees with Paypal is 30 cents + 12.9%. You also got to remember that was only what someone that worked for a dealer here offered. One dealer told me he would sell it for $145-$165 and I wouldn't like my offer and to go for the other dealer's offer since they wouldn't make money at that price. Another dealer wouldn't buy it because they couldn't sell it. One thing that concerned me about shipping it out was that they may get it in hand, decided that the profit margin would not be good enough and say they would offer something else. My point is that just because a dealer offers you something, doesn't mean anything about what it is worth. One downgraded my coin and talked about the Morgan's he got for sale for a much lower price. Naturally a lot of dealers want to get their coins at the lowest price possible and sell it for the highest they can. I took a lot to a dealer just to see what they would pay. They offered what I paid. So to say that dealer's wholesale is the price it is worth just isn't true. I can tell you this, any dealer that pays melt for a seated coin or older will examine it and if it isn't completely worn down and holed, they will pull it out and try to sell it at a premium. As far as the 1893 Morgan, that is just what I charged BIN, it was not what I got for the coin. It most likely could sell for more I just am not accustomed to selling higher priced coins.