Great website, TomB.!

[EZ_E]

Ivy League Coin

 

TomB., I perused your website for the first time and found it fascinating and very well written. I love science and its theory and find that you present the theories of toning and photography in a very concise and readable way. Thanks for your investment of time and energy into creating this site.

 

Toning question: Of course, a coin's toning is largely subjective but I have seen very few twentieth century coins (i.e. Franklins, Roosevelts, Washingtons and Mercs) that can even come close to comparing with some of the incredible toning found on ninteenth century coins with awesome, concentric blue or champagne toning. Of course there are exceptions but it seems to me that most moderns do not have uniformity in color and present a more mottled look. Of course time is a very large factor and they have the same silver/copper ratio so why, do you think, is there is such a degree of difference in toning?

 

Thanks in advance for your response.

 

p.s. Link did not transcribe.

[TomB]

WOOHOO! Thanks for the kind words about my site!

 

I must admit that one of my greatest latent fears is to see my name in the middle of a thread title. You know those types of threads (they are seen more at PCGS, but sometimes crop up here, too) where the title is something like "Underhanded, nasty seller TomB sold me blowtorched coins!"

 

In response to your very good question about the difference in the quality of toning of 19th century coins vs 20th century coins, I would have to say that the ability to save coins and the major means of long-term storage play an important role in the toning process.

 

Most of the coins from the 19th century that you are apparently writing about are the proof issues that were not mishandled. The attractive pieces, with even, gradient toning of smokey blues and tans, were likely stored on or within velvet-lined trays or display cases. The chemicals contained within the velvet lining, the glues used to hold the velvet down and the acidic woods that were used to construct the holders combined over time to allow these colors to establish themselves. We must also keep in mind that not all of these proof issues are attractive, in fact, quite a few aren't good looking at all and/or have been dipped.

 

The common coin album, as we know it, started to develop in the early half of the 20th century. The various albums that developed were almost always paper-based and usually made from the cheapest grade paper available. Prior to 1970, almost all papers were sized for water repellency and ink hold out using aluminum sulfate. This was also used as a formation aid and retention chemical to hold small particulate in the paper. The amount used would typically yield a pH for the paper of around 4-4.5, which is acidic. If a dye were used to color the paper then one or more various salts were introduced such as sodium sulfate, sodium chloride or others. The function of these dyes was analogous to making the paper color-fast, such as today's clothes. Also, sulfuric acid was added to maintain a relatively stable pH of 4.0 during the papermaking process. If the pH were to drop too far, that is, become too acidic, then other compounds were used to bring it up and these included sodium aluminate, soda ash and even sodium hydroxide.

 

Exposing coins to this environment served to accelerate toning greatly and unevenly since coins could be loose-fitting or tight-fitting in the holder, could be stored in fresh or "leeched out" holders, were made more portable and thus stored in a greater variety of environments, occupied various positions within their holders that affected their ability to tone such as occupying a space next to the edge of an album page or within the middle of an album page. The mass production and usage of these albums, and other modern storage techniques, combined with the reduced value of the coins they often held, allowed many more people to save coins. Not all of these people were numismatists and not all of them treated the coins "well" in how we would think of it today. Therefore, we have a different type of toning that arises from the different storage techniques and also from the history of how each coin was handled.

 

As for present day, most paper manufacture is alkaline in nature, these are the archival safe papers that we see. In many cases these papers are neutralized by the introduction of calcium carbonate, which is added to person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point or stop the ageing process. Practically speaking, paper produced over the last 20 years is fairly inert and should not tone coins in the same manner as seen previously.

[EZ_E]

Excellent reply! Oh, did I mention that your response was excellent! Very informative and it wasn't P iled H igher and D eeper either.

 

Recently, I experimented somewhat with a Waite Raymond album that was in mint state. I had many low mint state Walkers that were dipped blast white. I placed about thirty of them in the above mentioned album and suspended them over a wood stove last winter. I continuely filled a cup of water below it. After about three months, I got some very pleasing toning. Most were barely affected, a couple became darkly toned but a half dozen of them turned out very sweet. The 1945 D has a most beautiful blue crescent on the reverse. The 1942 S has some very nice light green toning over the face and olive leaves with the sun toned a nice crescent orange-purple. It's reverse is a sweet champagne. You're correct when you state that the coins closest to the edge have the greatest degree of toning. However, in general, it appears that there was no apparent pattern to the one's which toned the nicest.

 

I've already proved that I have not mastered the art of digital photography but I'll give it an attempt.

 

Thanks again for your response, TomB.

 

You are very knowledgably and I find that very refreshing!

[EZ_E]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michael]

wow victor that 42 s has great color and eye appeal for me wild

 

that franklin i am in with the toning around the liberty bell accunates it and makes it look sweet exceptional

 

all the walkers are cool too

 

 

thanks for posting a great response!!!!! tomb

 

 

 

 

michael

[michael]

i love the barber half too

 

michael

[TomB]

I'm glad you appreciated the response. Your coins are very interesting to see and, as Michael has already stated, the Barber and Franklin look quite intriguing. The images of the WLHs look like they are in a Meghrig holder, not a Wayte Raymond, but I will assume that that is simply because of the lighting used. You may want to try additional toning experiments on coins that are not dipped since the dipping process has removed the already slightly oxidized skin from the coin and exposes a flatter, possibly less reactive face.

[EZ_E]

Actually, I've taken them out of the Wayte Raymond album and placed them in an Intercept Shield album. The '42 S is in my Dansco type album.

 

Interesting enough, I had a 1982 Washington Commemorative half in ms in the same album and it did not react at all. Possibly because it had never been dipped before and the oxide film on it prevented any further interaction.

 

The Barber half reverse toned in such a way because of cigarette smoke. It has great details but was hairlined. I have an 1860 O Seated Liberty half that toned the same way. Just the reverses (which were face down in the album) toned in such a way. The obverses have a hint of it.

 

All of the pictures were taken outside w/o a flash. The '42 S photo has not been tweeked but in person the colors are more subtle.

 

And, as always, thanks for your input, Michael.

[EZ_E]

The bottom photo is of the '45 D. Before I left for the summer, it had an awesome blue crescent. I left it in the "attic" when I left for the summer on a cat scan assignment and it toned too dark. If I had removed it sooner, it would have had loads more eye-appeal. The picture still doesn't do it justice.

 

p.s. Hey, how about those photos actually turning out? Must have picked up something by osmosis on your web page.

[michael]

the 45 d is really great too and you did a nice job with the photos victor

 

michael

[GP_]

great explanantion, that was a great read!

 

Of course all this talk is making want to try another window sill toning project, but this time check it more often so I dont miss the sweet spot

[Hoot]

Tom - Fantastic explanations. Thanks for taking the time.

 

I have had some luck with allowing coins that have been dipped to take on toning if I leave them in a velvet tray, covered by another velvet tray, for a year or two. Of those that I've done this with (nickels, a Walker and a few Franklins), the nickels seem to react the most, with the silver reacting only a little.

 

The album toning that I've had luck with has been in an old brown Dansco coin board (uniface) and a Wayte Raymond, and again, only with nickels. Also, the nickel coinage that I have in Intercept Shield albums is noticably taking on some nice album toning! This is most noticable with nickel 5 cent pieces and clad Washington quarters. I simply don't buy the whole non-reactive BS about the IS albums. They may be more neutral than older albums, but they don't do what they claim.

 

It's dry enough here in Montana, and also cool enough, that I think that toning takes a longer period of time. I have no wood stove Victor! Basements are the best for slight moisture.

 

Hoot

[Tradedollarnut]

I am not a fan of blast white .... yet I think I would prefer that over the somewhat blotchy and blah toning shown in the pictures above. JMHO.

[EZ_E]

I just finished reading Weimar White's Coin Chemistry . It is a compilation of articles writen for numismatic publications over a period of time. It covers much addressed by Tom B. on his website plus more. I definitely recommend it to those desiring to understand the chemical reactions known as toning.

 

Hoot, Hydrogen Sulfide gas is the culprit in a majority of all toning. Intercept Shield products are impregnated with copper in order to react with the atmospheric gases first. Once this copper is used up then the protection provided is much dimensioned.

[EZ_E]

I am not a fan of blast white .... yet I think I would prefer that over the somewhat blotchy and blah toning shown in the pictures above. JMHO.

 

I agree except for the 1942 S. I still love that coin!

[EZ_E]

Resurrected in CT Collector's and TomB's honour!

[CTcollector]

Good job guys - very imformative ! I really liked the 19th versus 20th century comparison. I learned something new.