Toned ASE

[TonerGuy]

 

It's based on math. When you are certifying millions of coins and likely seeing thousands of AT coins per month, even if a few hundred or so slip through the cracks, the PCGS/NGC weed out ratio would still be very high. If 1,000 AT coins slip past the TPGs for every 100,000 AT coins submitted, the coin doctors' success rate would be approximately 1%, and this is being generous to the coin doctors. I would not call this good "at making the coins look MA." Coin doctors are dangerous, but I believe that many of them are given more credit than they deserve for the "quality" of their product.

 

I still think there are far more AT and doctored coins in plastic than anyone wants to admit. Once you get past that it really just becomes a matter of MA.

 

What I find annoying is that the TPGs will change their standards as to MA capriciously and without notice to the community... well at least to the collectors. Perhaps the dealers that have relationships with NGC/PCGS get notice of a policy change but not the little guys...dealers and collectors.

 

As for the quality of their product you still dispute that the coin I posted is AT. If you are told its AT and you refuse to believe it that just goes to show you how good their work has become. Its causing the willing suspension of disbelief... thats impressive.

[coinman_23885]

What I find annoying is that the TPGs will change their standards as to MA capriciously and without notice to the community...

 

Agreed.

 

As for the quality of their product you still dispute that the coin I posted is AT. If you are told its AT and you refuse to believe it that just goes to show you how good their work has become. Its causing the willing suspension of disbelief... thats impressive.

 

I never said that I thought it was NT; I just said that there is more disagreement than what you might think among collectors concerning the coin. I have no problem believing your story at all. When I asked how you knew it was artificially toned, I was asking because of the wording of your post. If you had done experimentation (or witnessed the AT process first hand), I thought it would make for an interesting discussion. While I have a general idea of the doctoring process, I was curious about the production of the banding pattern.

 

Finally, with regards to the coin doctors' quality of work, .999 fine silver tones differently than normal .900 coin silver. I think the hobby is more concerned about being able to convincingly fake toning on the latter rather than silver eagles.

[Kurtdog]

What are you talking about kurtdog? I honestly don't understand your posts above.

NT and AT are ridiculous, arbitrary "market grading" standards by which to differentiate and judge tarnished coins. To the degree you fail to perceive that and are rather persuaded they're legitimate standards to the same degree will you fail to understand anything I ever say in reference to same.

 

On your coin, particularly, it's pretty. And, it's tarnish. It's not spray paint, and it's not nail polish. And, most importantly, the tarnish doesn't negatively-affect the condition of the coin (namely, the coin's surface). That's it. It's a good coin. Collect it with confidence and get off trying to fit it into one or another of these utterly delusional criteria. Period.

[newprepper]

Kurtdog, I'm beginning to see your POV, but when a TPG wants to deny grading on a coin, what would you recommend they use as a term instead of artificial toning? Forced?

 

I like white and I like tarnished, just depends on the look of the coin.

[Kurtdog]

Kurtdog, I'm beginning to see your POV, but when a TPG wants to deny grading on a coin, what would you recommend they use as a term instead of artificial toning? Forced?

That's the issue, isn't it? What are they going to do, call it ugly? That's about as useless a grading standard as AT, but still, how intellectual is that for a professional third-party grader? Call it AT. Oh, it's AT? Is that what it is? I knew it! I didn't like it from the beginning! Oh, it's not? Oh, it's NT? Well, they're the professionals. Am I glad they're here. Now that I look at it again I still can't see why it's NT. But then I have to admit I have a lot to learn, I've only been collecting coins going on 25 years, and that hardly qualifies me as a professional. Who's a good expert from whom I can get an education? I'm in need of an education! I know this much, I'll never buy another uncertified toned coin again! I won't even look at those, again. If the toning is NT, why aren't they certified, huh, huh? I'm no sap. Coin-sniffer. Talk about intellectual professionals! I think I've seen one of those on CSI Miami, didn't I? Forensic analysis. That's the only sure way to go on toning. Define AT and NT? Get real! Everybody knows what those are! What am I, a fool? Are you beginning to get the idea?

 

I like white and I like tarnished, just depends on the look of the coin.

Me too. It looks cooked to me, I call it cooked; offer less. A baked-potato job, same thing. Any tarnish that looks quick and easy to duplicate is hardly what one would call scarce, is it? Tarnish that's imbedded, deep, rich, you know the looks, those are more gradual onset and much harder to duplicate. But, either way, the thin, pastel watercolor painting look, or the oil painting look, they're both legitimate tarnish. But there are too many collectors already invested in these nonsensical grading standards, aren't there? Yeah. And everybody knows the truth about these standards and now they can't give their 20-100X premium coins away. Maintain the faith. That's the way to go. However irrational. However arbitrary. However capricious and pretentious. Go experts! Yeah, that's what I need, another expert book on toning. Take my money for that, too, while they're at it. It's worth it for the education so I don't pay 20-100X for anything AT ever again!

 

There's a guy on this forum, a toned coin dealer, who tarnished five coins with the sulfur from matchsticks as an experiment and sold them disclosing same to his buyers. Five for five they ended up graded in PCGS slabs. The guy couldn't believe it. He told us about it and even told PCGS about it as though he's going to get some kind of understanding on it. I wish I could find the threads for you, I believe they were well-before you joined over here. Maybe they already went, you know, "poof!" I don't know.

 

I can go on and on but I got a real job I got to get back to. Don't have the time to waste on a coin book on a subject-matter as amateurish as tarnish, anyway, especially one nobody would buy. Not here, anyway. Too much in the groove for that. If you know what I mean.

 

But that's OK. The bottom-line always is, collect what you want, spend what you want. The TPGs? Their bottom-line is grade however they want on whatever standards they want, however irrational, arbitrary or otherwise. So long as they can sell those standards to their loyal forum and registry-set customers, they’re OK, they've got it made in the shade. Just once I’d like to see a TPG come along grading coins strictly on condition. I don’t think they remember how, anymore. Unfortunately, I honestly don’t.

[dimefreak]

DGS was very strict and went out of buisness....

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Credit the influence of the marketing graders for that.