NT vs. AT coins

[TonerGuy]

I prefer the terms QT=Questionable Toning and MA=Market Acceptable but I understand that people are always going to use NT & AT.

 

+1

 

But lets no bombard a newbie with technical issues when it comes to toning... I for one would like to see more people collect toned coins but as soon as someone asks a question about toning it usually turns into a debate...

 

And that debate can often scare someone off from getting into toned coins.

 

If you are going to collect toned coins you have to make mistakes. I think I learned the most about toning from looking at thousands of coins online and in person at coins shows and then hunting down raw coins and submitting them for grading. While that might not be the best education as to AT and NT it has been been great towards learning what is Questionable Toning and Market Acceptable.

 

And to the OP - what is market acceptable does change over the years and can often change in the blink of an eye.

[lehigh96]

looking back through my ebay messages one of them was dannyhv6-2. I didn't see any others. It was on 22july when I contacted him, so if you want to search the archives here around that time there was a thread about it where I said this same thing

 

What would I have to gain by messing with you saying that, I don't sell toned coins, nor do I buy them of that type. I would like some real ones but they are way out of my price range.

 

They said heat and electricity were the methods. That sounds reasonable to me since I know what heat does to steel, electricity probably heats it up too.

 

I don't consider that gullable. At least I didn't say it was a magnetic force

 

Well I have messed with people on internet forums plenty of times. What do you have to gain? It is funny, nothing more. From my perspective, what you wrote was just as likely to be a joke as it was serious.

 

Now that we have settled on the fact that you were serious, both MJ and I were assuming that they told you in detail how they did it. Saying "electricity & heat" provides no additional information to any toned coin collector.

[TonerGuy]

Of course! The TPGs make mistakes and slabs can be gassed to AT them in the slab.

 

Have you ever seen a coin thats been gassed in the holder that you knew for sure had been put through this process ? I have heard about this as well but I dont think I have ever seen one or at least knew what I was looking at when I held it...

 

 

[newprepper]

looking back through my ebay messages one of them was dannyhv6-2. I didn't see any others. It was on 22july when I contacted him, so if you want to search the archives here around that time there was a thread about it where I said this same thing

 

What would I have to gain by messing with you saying that, I don't sell toned coins, nor do I buy them of that type. I would like some real ones but they are way out of my price range.

 

They said heat and electricity were the methods. That sounds reasonable to me since I know what heat does to steel, electricity probably heats it up too.

 

I don't consider that gullable. At least I didn't say it was a magnetic force

 

Well I have messed with people on internet forums plenty of times. What do you have to gain? It is funny, nothing more. From my perspective, what you wrote was just as likely to be a joke as it was serious.

 

Now that we have settled on the fact that you were serious, both MJ and I were assuming that they told you in detail how they did it. Saying "electricity & heat" provides no additional information to any toned coin collector.

 

Are you Lehigh96 on cointalk? I just read another (heated) thread about this, but no they did not disclose any secrets. However, I am making knives from O-1 steel, and after hardening you temper the spine with a torch, the spine changes colors, so it is probably not that difficult to do. If that is you, you saw the part about the potato

[jom]

I prefer the terms QT=Questionable Toning and MA=Market Acceptable but I understand that people are always going to use NT & AT.

 

As do I. Mostly because that is how the TPGs do it. To them there really isn't NT or AT just MA or not.

 

This is a tough subject and many have opinions. Frankly, I think the whole issue is WAY overblown. You buy a coin because you like it..period. And, to me, if the coin doesn't change the way it looks over a "reasonable" period of time what's the difference in HOW it got that way in the first place?

 

However, others differ on this which is fine too. To each their own.

 

jom

[lehigh96]

looking back through my ebay messages one of them was dannyhv6-2. I didn't see any others. It was on 22july when I contacted him, so if you want to search the archives here around that time there was a thread about it where I said this same thing

 

What would I have to gain by messing with you saying that, I don't sell toned coins, nor do I buy them of that type. I would like some real ones but they are way out of my price range.

 

They said heat and electricity were the methods. That sounds reasonable to me since I know what heat does to steel, electricity probably heats it up too.

 

I don't consider that gullable. At least I didn't say it was a magnetic force

 

Well I have messed with people on internet forums plenty of times. What do you have to gain? It is funny, nothing more. From my perspective, what you wrote was just as likely to be a joke as it was serious.

 

Now that we have settled on the fact that you were serious, both MJ and I were assuming that they told you in detail how they did it. Saying "electricity & heat" provides no additional information to any toned coin collector.

 

Are you Lehigh96 on cointalk? I just read another (heated) thread about this, but no they did not disclose any secrets. However, I am making knives from O-1 steel, and after hardening you temper the spine with a torch, the spine changes colors, so it is probably not that difficult to do. If that is you, you saw the part about the potato

 

I am Lehigh96 on every forum. Is the heated thread you read the one that got me banned? This is a topic that gets repeated a few times each year on just about every major coin forum. I really wish that the TCCS forum did not get nuked by a virus. There were some outstanding threads with fantastic information about toning on that forum.

[coinman_23885]

Of course! The TPGs make mistakes and slabs can be gassed to AT them in the slab.

 

Have you ever seen a coin thats been gassed in the holder that you knew for sure had been put through this process ? I have heard about this as well but I dont think I have ever seen one or at least knew what I was looking at when I held it...

 

 

I have come across a few slabs that I believe were gassed. The coins were suspicious and did not look like those that I would expect to see in problem free holders. Was I there when the pieces were gassed? No, but I am 99.9% sure that's what was done to those particular pieces although I may not be able to prove that this happened to those pieces. I only wish that I had images of the coins. With this said, I do know for a fact that gassing of slabs after certification does happen. There was at least one coin doctor who had developed a reputation for doing this.

[TonerGuy]

Of course! The TPGs make mistakes and slabs can be gassed to AT them in the slab.

 

Have you ever seen a coin thats been gassed in the holder that you knew for sure had been put through this process ? I have heard about this as well but I dont think I have ever seen one or at least knew what I was looking at when I held it...

 

 

I have come across a few slabs that I believe were gassed. The coins were suspicious and did not look like those that I would expect to see in problem free holders. Was I there when the pieces were gassed? No, but I am 99.9% sure that's what was done to those particular pieces although I may not be able to prove that this happened to those pieces. I only wish that I had images of the coins. With this said, I do know for a fact that gassing of slabs after certification does happen. There was at least one coin doctor who had developed a reputation for doing this.

 

If you ever come across one that you think fits the bill could you please post a link or pics of it ? I am very interested in seeing an example... Thank you in advance.

[newprepper]

looking back through my ebay messages one of them was dannyhv6-2. I didn't see any others. It was on 22july when I contacted him, so if you want to search the archives here around that time there was a thread about it where I said this same thing

 

What would I have to gain by messing with you saying that, I don't sell toned coins, nor do I buy them of that type. I would like some real ones but they are way out of my price range.

 

They said heat and electricity were the methods. That sounds reasonable to me since I know what heat does to steel, electricity probably heats it up too.

 

I don't consider that gullable. At least I didn't say it was a magnetic force

 

Well I have messed with people on internet forums plenty of times. What do you have to gain? It is funny, nothing more. From my perspective, what you wrote was just as likely to be a joke as it was serious.

 

Now that we have settled on the fact that you were serious, both MJ and I were assuming that they told you in detail how they did it. Saying "electricity & heat" provides no additional information to any toned coin collector.

 

Are you Lehigh96 on cointalk? I just read another (heated) thread about this, but no they did not disclose any secrets. However, I am making knives from O-1 steel, and after hardening you temper the spine with a torch, the spine changes colors, so it is probably not that difficult to do. If that is you, you saw the part about the potato

 

I am Lehigh96 on every forum. Is the heated thread you read the one that got me banned? This is a topic that gets repeated a few times each year on just about every major coin forum. I really wish that the TCCS forum did not get nuked by a virus. There were some outstanding threads with fantastic information about toning on that forum.

 

I didn't read it all, but it seemed pretty heated, you were on the offensive thats for sure, haha, but I did read a couple ways to tone coins, I tried 2 of them tonight, baked an ASE in a potato, still white, hard boiled egg in a ziplock, now has purple tones to it. All I did was google it, saw a video on rainbow cents also using a gas stove. lots of methods

[newprepper]

Of course! The TPGs make mistakes and slabs can be gassed to AT them in the slab.

 

Have you ever seen a coin thats been gassed in the holder that you knew for sure had been put through this process ? I have heard about this as well but I dont think I have ever seen one or at least knew what I was looking at when I held it...

 

 

I have come across a few slabs that I believe were gassed. The coins were suspicious and did not look like those that I would expect to see in problem free holders. Was I there when the pieces were gassed? No, but I am 99.9% sure that's what was done to those particular pieces although I may not be able to prove that this happened to those pieces. I only wish that I had images of the coins. With this said, I do know for a fact that gassing of slabs after certification does happen. There was at least one coin doctor who had developed a reputation for doing this.

 

If you ever come across one that you think fits the bill could you please post a link or pics of it ? I am very interested in seeing an example... Thank you in advance.

 

I think with very little equipment you could gas a coin, I would put in a vacuum to draw all the air out, then infuse with whatever gases produce the toning, when done reverse to draw them back out. This is all conjecture on my part, but it make sense to me.

[Kurtdog]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT.

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

That's better than those arbitrary standards. In fact, it's almost the way we judge dipped coins, too, isn't it? Let me think about that. In the meantime, James, I'll lose "NT." That's not a problem for me, whatsoever.

[coinman_23885]

Although I admit that the concept can become ambiguous and hairy, I think there is a difference between artificial and natural toning. For instance, I do see a meaningful difference between toning result from Crisco in a frying pan and that which has resulted from a coin, set aside, that toned because of elements in the air.

[newprepper]

Although I admit that the concept can become ambiguous and hairy, I think there is a difference between artificial and natural toning. For instance, I do see a meaningful difference between toning result from Crisco in a frying pan and that which has resulted from a coin, set aside, that toned because of elements in the air.

 

That is where intent comes into play

[James_OldeTowne]

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

Since nobody else will ever adopt your labels, do you just associate NT=proper and AT=improper when other people discuss the topic? Or do you plan to bombard us with this rant every couple months?

 

It isn't that I disagree with you. Infact, quite the opposite. I prefer the terms QT=Questionable Toning and MA=Market Acceptable but I understand that people are always going to use NT & AT.

I certainly plan to offer an alternative perspective whenever this discussion arises, which seems to be often. Do you consider my two-sentence paragraph to be a "bombarding rant"? "Market acceptable vs unacceptable" are more sensible, but I just happen to like my own terms even better.

[BLive1972]

Thank you all for your reply's, and I can see that it's true..this topic can be debated forever. I can see it from both sides. Yes, I understand that toning is a "natural" reaction whether it be forced in a short time for profit, or accidentally/intentionally placed in an object which may help it tone over a long period of time.

 

I guess my conclusion is that it's a personal preference and I wouldn't expect to expect everyone else to have the same attraction to it and pay the same price just to own it. Then again, maybe I would over time. I'm sure if people are buying them on eBay, there's a big enough of a demand regardless if it's "artificially" toned.. Perhaps we can call it "Flash Toned"

 

So far, I prefer a subtle tone, but not on all coins.

[lehigh96]

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

Since nobody else will ever adopt your labels, do you just associate NT=proper and AT=improper when other people discuss the topic? Or do you plan to bombard us with this rant every couple months?

 

It isn't that I disagree with you. Infact, quite the opposite. I prefer the terms QT=Questionable Toning and MA=Market Acceptable but I understand that people are always going to use NT & AT.

I certainly plan to offer an alternative perspective whenever this discussion arises, which seems to be often. Do you consider my two-sentence paragraph to be a "bombarding rant"? "Market acceptable vs unacceptable" are more sensible, but I just happen to like my own terms even better.

 

Consider that I agree with you and I still called it a rant. Yes, I do consider it a rant. I don't expect you to make any headway but if it makes you happy to post it everytime the AT/NT debate hits, feel free to join kurtdog in that regard.

[BLive1972]

Well, pulled the trigger on my first toned coin. I like the way it looks, and I didn't want to go too crazy with my first one. I'm not sure if the coin is cleaned, but I can't see any abrasive scratching anywhere in the toning..not sure about it, but I still like it.

 

[newprepper]

I like the ones with blue. Nice pickup

[newprepper]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT.

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

 

I like your "proper" vs "improper" opinion, but I disagree with your opinion on whether or not coins can have natural toning, the coin is not natural but the material used to make it is, so the resulting toning is a natural process that occurs. Like if you put something in the sun, it gets hot naturally, versus putting it on the stove, unnatural. JMO

[BLive1972]

I like the ones with blue. Nice pickup

Thank you. That's what I liked most about it.

 

I found this interesting. Has some great examples of toned Morgans:

http://www.jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp

 

[James_OldeTowne]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT.

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

I like your "proper" vs "improper" opinion, but I disagree with your opinion on whether or not coins can have natural toning, the coin is not natural but the material used to make it is, so the resulting toning is a natural process that occurs. Like if you put something in the sun, it gets hot naturally, versus putting it on the stove, unnatural. JMO

That's the reasoning that usually comes back to me - silver is a "natural" material, so the toning can be natural, etc. However, I counter that the difference is that silver in nature doesn't occur in 90% silver/10% copper alloy in convenient small round blanks. That's a man-made artifact -- artificial -- and therefore anything that follows cannot be considered "natural".

 

All that said, the actions that do follow can be categorized as "proper" or "improper" from a marketing standpoint (or acceptable/unacceptable). This still keeps the discussion in the realm of subjectivity without forcing us to bring Mother Nature into the discussion.

 

Even then, it's still all subjective. I personally consider it improper to blowtorch a coin with the desire to make it turn purple, but I guess some folks out there love the color purple and consider that proper and acceptable practice.

[newprepper]

So what do you think about "all-natural" breakfast cereals? haha

[James_OldeTowne]

So what do you think about "all-natural" breakfast cereals? haha

They are usually high in fiber!!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Yep, I would sure love to eat a bowl of fresh cut all natural wheat...yummy and all raw fiber.