NT vs. AT coins

[BLive1972]

Toned coins are nice looking, but I see some are charging more for AT coins. I would think that enhancing a coin whether it be by cleaning or toning would diminish the value. Yeah, it might be pretty, but aren't you taking away from the natural aging?

 

True or False- Can a coin that's already been graded still be AT? I'm thinking yes because a current can still affect a slabbed coin, but I'm still learning.

 

I don't think I'd get one unless its already been graded an marked NT (if they even do that).

 

Thanks!

[BLive1972]

Safe to say it's just a personal preference?

 

This seller is full of em: http://www.ebay.com/sch/cwbyup1051/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3692

 

[FILTHYHOARD]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

[TonerGuy]

It is a personal preference. Some collectors do collect AT coins, on purpose, especially if they are "works of art." Some collectors purchase AT coins as a way to be able to study them or have an example of AT to compare to.

 

There are some coin doctors that are so good at their craft that they can fool even PCGS and NGC and have their handicraft graded and encapsulated.

 

I dont think you will ever see a designation of NT on a slab though. By giving the coin a grade and putting it into a slab the TPG is, in essence, saying the coin is NT.

 

As for artificially toning a coin within the slab, thats something entirely different than toning it and sending it into the TPG. I have heard stories of forced gas being used to try to do that but I have never seen an AT'd coin in a slab that was toned AFTER it was graded and encapsulated. That doesnt mean it doesnt happen I have just yet to see one. However, I suspect it would very very difficult to do that.

 

If you want to collect toned coins, do your research. Look at hundreds of examples of toned coins before you buy your first one. Go to every show you can and look through the dealers cases. Look at the toned guys on Ebay everyday. Look at toned coins in NGC and PCGS and compare them to raw coins. You will eventually with enough time and practice be able to spot most AT coins from NT coins. And realize that different series of coins will toned differently then others. Every years and mints will tone differently within the same series.

[BLive1972]

Thanks very much! I've been looking at them all morning trying to compare.

[delta]

Have you read through this recent discussion thread?

 

Link

[johnny9434]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

i wonder why ebay hasent booted this guy yet? or does he just keep coming back as someone else?

[BLive1972]

Have you read through this recent discussion thread?

 

Link

 

I'll check it out. Thanks!

 

 

[BLive1972]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

i wonder why ebay hasent booted this guy yet? or does he just keep coming back as someone else?

...and no negative feedback

[newprepper]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

i wonder why ebay hasent booted this guy yet? or does he just keep coming back as someone else?

 

Booted him for what? He says AT in the description, says a nice alternative to more expensive NT coins, He is doing the same thing others do when they say they are putting a coin in an album to tone it

[grip]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

i wonder why ebay hasent booted this guy yet? or does he just keep coming back as someone else?

 

Booted him for what? He says AT in the description, says a nice alternative to more expensive NT coins, He is doing the same thing others do when they say they are putting a coin in an album to tone it

 

[TomB]

I love some toned coins, but many have neutral or negative eye appeal to me. However, I also avoid coins that have been dipped white. Thankfully, this hobby has so many options for purchase that I am not forced to incorporate any coin that I do not like either into my collection or onto my site into my inventory.

 

To answer one of your questions more directly; I have no doubt that some AT coins have made it into PCGS and NGC holders, but they also do a very good job of keeping them out.

[lehigh96]

Cwbyup is notorious for his AT coins. He's been around on Ebay for quite some time now, but it's only until recently that he includes the term AT in his descriptions. He just doesn't put AT in the title

i wonder why ebay hasent booted this guy yet? or does he just keep coming back as someone else?

 

Booted him for what? He says AT in the description, says a nice alternative to more expensive NT coins, He is doing the same thing others do when they say they are putting a coin in an album to tone it

 

Just as a bit of history. He didn't always put "AT" in his listings. At some point, E-Bay forced him to start listing his coins as "AT".

[Kurtdog]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT. Oh, but that's a minority point of view, because, look around, here, the overwhelming majority believes in the existence of AT! If that's what's preventing you from understanding, I'll simply hasten to point out, there was a time when the overwhelming majority believed In the existence of witches. So much for what the overwhelming majority is led to believe.

 

There is such a thing, when speaking of mode of onset, as abrupt onset. There is such a thing as tarnish that's easy to duplicate, and tarnish that's hard to duplicate. You'll get a feel for how to differentiate those after you've looked over enough of these. Generally-speaking, the premium coins are the ones with the longer modes of onset. That makes sense, as they're simply that much harder to duplicate. The exceptions are when the abrupt-onset tarnish is just breathtaking. Those, too, are apt to transact at premiums, for just that reason.

 

Bottom-line, you want to understand, tarnish is tarnish. You want to buy what appeals to you without regard to the application of these arbitrary standards. If the tarnish doesn't impair the surface of the coin, as does cleaning, for example, you want to understand, it's good tarnish. When it comes to what you pay, you want to base that on how much the tarnish appeals to you, and on whether the tarnish is easy to duplicate, or hard to duplicate. Again, you'll get a feel for the latter as you go along. And, that's all there is to it.

[newprepper]

OK, earlier this year I contacted a few of the people manufacturing the AT coins. Each of them told me honestly how they did it. None were in the listings. I don't care if they do it, I just wish they would leave the old coins alone and stick with the ASE's

[MJ]

OK, earlier this year I contacted a few of the people manufacturing the AT coins. Each of them told me honestly how they did it. None were in the listings. I don't care if they do it, I just wish they would leave the old coins alone and stick with the ASE's

 

Wow. I want to ask so like 50 questions based on your post.

 

Let me start with just one. How did you know who to contact?

 

MJ

[Raisethis2]

Just to be perfectly clear, AT coins are much less desirable and while you may be asked to pay a premium when you buy one I can guarantee you that you'll get less than what the coins should fetch at the time you sell it.

 

There are diagnostics that a new collector can look for to determine maybe 75% of AT coins on the spot. These include inconsistencies in toned areas of the coin, that the toning seems to lay on the coin rather than an element of it's luster and tiny spots in the toning. Wild and unbelievable colors are a huge red flag. If it looks too good to be true, it usually is. If it's absolutely beautiful you have to ask, why isn't this in a holder?

 

Best bet though is to collect holdered, graded examples and then a good AT coin as a comparison piece. Don't collect AT coins as an element of your hobby experience. Just don't.

 

Finally, all that said I hope the Doctors continue to ruin more coins in this fashion. That just makes great examples of unaltered coins more valuable.

[Kurtdog]

I just wish they would leave the old coins alone and stick with the ASE's

That's where the dough is. Back when we had only technical grading, it was in blast white, and that's why the tarnish was dipped off so many of those coins.The change in the grading standards to market grading swung those "doctors" around 180-degrees. That's all that happened.

[newprepper]

OK, earlier this year I contacted a few of the people manufacturing the AT coins. Each of them told me honestly how they did it. None were in the listings. I don't care if they do it, I just wish they would leave the old coins alone and stick with the ASE's

 

Wow. I want to ask so like 50 questions based on your post.

 

Let me start with just one. How did you know who to contact?

 

MJ

 

Ebay listings, click on ask seller a question

[lehigh96]

OK, earlier this year I contacted a few of the people manufacturing the AT coins. Each of them told me honestly how they did it. None were in the listings. I don't care if they do it, I just wish they would leave the old coins alone and stick with the ASE's

 

Wow. I want to ask so like 50 questions based on your post.

 

Let me start with just one. How did you know who to contact?

 

MJ

 

Ebay listings, click on ask seller a question

 

My leg hurts.

[newprepper]

Could be a blood clot

[James_OldeTowne]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT.

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

[lehigh96]

There's no such thing as AT. AT, rather, is a fabrication. It's a construct of the mind. It simply doesn't exist. All tarnish, regardless of the mode of onset, is NT.

Actually, in my opinion, AT and NT both are ridiculous terms, subject to overly widespread usage. As you point out, there is no such thing as "artificial toning", since ALL toning is just what it is -- tarnish -- regardless of how it came to be.

 

However, there also is no such thing as "natural toning", since coins are not a product of nature to begin with.

 

As of a number of months ago, I have been sticking with the terms "proper toning" vs. "improper toning", as this reflects a dichotomy much like what exists with cleaning. There are proper ways to clean a coin, and improper ways, just as there are proper ways to TONE a coin, as well as improper ways.

 

Since nobody else will ever adopt your labels, do you just associate NT=proper and AT=improper when other people discuss the topic? Or do you plan to bombard us with this rant every couple months?

 

It isn't that I disagree with you. Infact, quite the opposite. I prefer the terms QT=Questionable Toning and MA=Market Acceptable but I understand that people are always going to use NT & AT.

[newprepper]

JMO, but it seems to me the only proper way for a coin to tone, is from time. over time oxidation will take place, whether in your pocket or a jar. just let nature take its course. anything else that would be intentional would constitute improper toning.

 

Now that being said, it doesn't matter to me either way, just leave the old coins alone with the improper toning. stick to the moderns.

[lehigh96]

Could be a blood clot

 

Pulling it causes blot clots? You should definitely stop then.

[newprepper]

Could be a blood clot

 

Pulling it causes blot clots? You should definitely stop then.

 

I'm not pulling any legs, thats why I said what I said, you should get it looked at. If you want to call me a liar about something I said, just say it

[lehigh96]

Could be a blood clot

 

Pulling it causes blot clots? You should definitely stop then.

 

I'm not pulling any legs, thats why I said what I said, you should get it looked at. If you want to call me a liar about something I said, just say it

 

Whoa. There is a big difference between calling you a liar and accusing you of messing with us. The latter is what I was doing in an effort to avoid being gullible. And if you actually believe what the coin doctors told you about their methods, then I will have accuse you of being what I was trying to avoid being.

 

It is possible that you contacted the people who create such obvious AT examples that they felt it wouldn't hurt their business by divulging a trade secret. Would you care to share the names of those you contacted?

[newprepper]

looking back through my ebay messages one of them was dannyhv6-2. I didn't see any others. It was on 22july when I contacted him, so if you want to search the archives here around that time there was a thread about it where I said this same thing

 

What would I have to gain by messing with you saying that, I don't sell toned coins, nor do I buy them of that type. I would like some real ones but they are way out of my price range.

 

They said heat and electricity were the methods. That sounds reasonable to me since I know what heat does to steel, electricity probably heats it up too.

 

I don't consider that gullable. At least I didn't say it was a magnetic force

[coinman_23885]

True or False- Can a coin that's already been graded still be AT? I'm thinking yes because a current can still affect a slabbed coin, but I'm still learning.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Of course! The TPGs make mistakes and slabs can be gassed to AT them in the slab.

[jpcienkus]

This thread was an interesting read. I'm just starting to collect coins. At the moment, I'm focusing on Morgan and Peace silver dollars.

 

I recently purchased one of these toned Morgans from cwbyup1051. The reason is that I just wanted to have one. I realize the toning has been induced, but the pattern was beautiful and I wanted to have one in my collection.

 

Like all things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I look forward to learning from all of you about coin collecting. I'm sure to make errors in my purchases as I learn, but I do hope to keep them to a minimum.