Record keeping at TPG's and CAC

[JIM F.]

Wondering if NGC and PCGS keep records of coins that are submitted in slabs for crossovers, and if so if re-submitted do they treat it as if it had not been previously submitted?

 

Similarly does CAC keep records of no-beans, and if so do they check new submittals against these?

 

This may be important in deciding whether to submit to NGC/PCGS as a crackout or not since one does not know the history of the slabbed coin.

 

Interested in replies

[Mozin]

I would hope NGC and PCGS treat every crossover attempt as a first time submission.

 

CAC most definitely keeps records of no-beans. My guess is CAC supplies this information on resubmissions to the graders. Resubmissions to CAC most always come back without the green bean again.

[yonico]

I'm sorry, but that's NOT true.

 

First of all, NGC takes crossovers from PCGs and assign them the same grade PCGS did, automatically (except for coins with FBL, FT and FS designations, and the coins are also reviewed for STAR). I'm not sure if it is posted anywhere on the NGC website but I was told that more than once by NGc's customer service (and 1 grader).

 

Also, CAC might keep records, but they do not use it on resubmissions. It's on their website FAQ that some coins that were stickered in the past might not get the sticker again, and vice versa. So it is possible for a coin that did not "pass" on the first submission, to pass on the second.

[coinman1794]

I'm sorry, but that's NOT true.

 

First of all, NGC takes crossovers from PCGs and assign them the same grade PCGS did, automatically (except for coins with FBL, FT and FS designations, and the coins are also reviewed for STAR).

 

I do not believe that. PCGS overgrades coins too, and NGC will not purposefully transfer an overgraded coin to their slab by default. I can see them considering the PCGS grade as part of their overall evaluation, however; though a fresh, unbias opinion would be ideal.

 

[MarkFeld]

I'm sorry, but that's NOT true.

 

First of all, NGC takes crossovers from PCGs and assign them the same grade PCGS did, automatically (except for coins with FBL, FT and FS designations, and the coins are also reviewed for STAR). I'm not sure if it is posted anywhere on the NGC website but I was told that more than once by NGc's customer service (and 1 grader).

 

Also, CAC might keep records, but they do not use it on resubmissions. It's on their website FAQ that some coins that were stickered in the past might not get the sticker again, and vice versa. So it is possible for a coin that did not "pass" on the first submission, to pass on the second.

 

Either I don't understand what you wrote, or you are badly mistaken. NGC certainly does not automatically assign crossovers the same grade that PCGS did (other than those with designations). If that were the case, every PCGS coin would cross to an NGC holder. So you must have meant something else.

 

And, from what I understand, CAC does use their records when viewing submissions/ resubmissions. It's just that they try to be open minded and occasionally knowingly stciker a coin which they rejected previously.

[yonico]

Sorry, I believe my comment was not well written, let me expand a little and please note that comments that are note posted as "facts", aren't facts

 

As I said in my comment, I did NOT read it anywhere on the NGC website, and I did not get any official NGC comment on the subject of "automatic crossover", but I was told that by several people in the business, one was VERY close to the action so I kinda take his word on it.

 

* FACT: NGC allows PCGS graded coins on it's registry, and automatically gives it the same score as their own graded coins. That goes Only for PCGS coins. ALL COINS GRADED BY PCGS.

 

My Comments: Why's that? If NGC believes some of PCGS's coins might be overgraded, is it not UNFAIR to give pcgs coins the same score and so maybe hurt the registry sets that are made of NGC coins only? I guess they "automatically" trust pcgs to grade these coins correctly..?

I'm not saying NGC are inconsistent with their grading, and am NOT trying to criticise it - just that if they fully trust PCGS's grading - then why not do automatic crossover? And if they don't trust PCGS 100%, why allow pcgs graded coins on the registry for same point score?

 

FACT: crossovers from PCGS are NOT treated as "first time submitted" coins. For crossovers from all other TPG's, you now have to sign a release form that allows NGC to crack the coin out of the slab and examine it as if the coin was submitted raw.

For crossovers from PCGS, however, the coin may be examined in the PCGS slab BEFORE crossing it into an NGC holder.

 

comment: That's a BIG difference.

 

FACT: PCGS won't even grade GSA Morgans or BROWN IKES through the plastic they were packed in by the government/the mint, but will take em out to take a closer look.

 

SARCASTIC FACT: But NGC can grade crossover coins through the PCGS slab plastic, that sometimes has scuffs, scratches and even glue residue on it..

 

Everything in my posts that is not PRESENTED as a fact, is usually not.

It's very possible I'm mistaken..

 

=====

 

Mark, you were right about the CAC question. it does not make sense to me though.

I still think it's very hard (for CAC graders) to keep an "open mind" about a coin, If you check and see that it was rejected before. I find that most people that have slabbed coins and don't agree with the assigned grade, will crack the coin out and send it raw rather than send it in the holder for review.

I believe that A coin that was MISTAKENLY certified as "details" has better chances to make it into a problem-free holder if re-submitted raw, rather than sent in the "details" holder for a review, don't you think?

Why would CAC first check the coin's history, and then try to "subjectively" re-evaluate it? If you know it was rejected before, you'll be LOOKING for the problem on the coin, probably stretching it sometimes..

 

this is from their website:

 

 

" Are the serial numbers of PCGS or NGC coins submitted to CAC for verification recorded? If so, are coins automatically rejected by CAC that have previously been submitted but were not stickered?

 

The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.

 

All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered. "

[MarkFeld]

Sorry, I believe my comment was not well written, let me expand a little and please note that comments that are note posted as "facts", aren't facts

 

As I said in my comment, I did NOT read it anywhere on the NGC website, and I did not get any official NGC comment on the subject of "automatic crossover", but I was told that by several people in the business, one was VERY close to the action so I kinda take his word on it.

 

* FACT: NGC allows PCGS graded coins on it's registry, and automatically gives it the same score as their own graded coins. That goes Only for PCGS coins. ALL COINS GRADED BY PCGS.

 

My Comments: Why's that? If NGC believes some of PCGS's coins might be overgraded, is it not UNFAIR to give pcgs coins the same score and so maybe hurt the registry sets that are made of NGC coins only? I guess they "automatically" trust pcgs to grade these coins correctly..?

I'm not saying NGC are inconsistent with their grading, and am NOT trying to criticise it - just that if they fully trust PCGS's grading - then why not do automatic crossover? And if they don't trust PCGS 100%, why allow pcgs graded coins on the registry for same point score?

 

FACT: crossovers from PCGS are NOT treated as "first time submitted" coins. For crossovers from all other TPG's, you now have to sign a release form that allows NGC to crack the coin out of the slab and examine it as if the coin was submitted raw.

For crossovers from PCGS, however, the coin may be examined in the PCGS slab BEFORE crossing it into an NGC holder.

 

comment: That's a BIG difference.

 

FACT: PCGS won't even grade GSA Morgans or BROWN IKES through the plastic they were packed in by the government/the mint, but will take em out to take a closer look.

 

SARCASTIC FACT: But NGC can grade crossover coins through the PCGS slab plastic, that sometimes has scuffs, scratches and even glue residue on it..

 

Everything in my posts that is not PRESENTED as a fact, is usually not.

It's very possible I'm mistaken..

 

=====

 

Mark, you were right about the CAC question. it does not make sense to me though.

I still think it's very hard (for CAC graders) to keep an "open mind" about a coin, If you check and see that it was rejected before. I find that most people that have slabbed coins and don't agree with the assigned grade, will crack the coin out and send it raw rather than send it in the holder for review.

I believe that A coin that was MISTAKENLY certified as "details" has better chances to make it into a problem-free holder if re-submitted raw, rather than sent in the "details" holder for a review, don't you think?

Why would CAC first check the coin's history, and then try to "subjectively" re-evaluate it? If you know it was rejected before, you'll be LOOKING for the problem on the coin, probably stretching it sometimes..

 

this is from their website:

 

 

" Are the serial numbers of PCGS or NGC coins submitted to CAC for verification recorded? If so, are coins automatically rejected by CAC that have previously been submitted but were not stickered?

 

The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.

 

All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered. "

 

NGC most assuredly does NOT automatically cross over PCGS coins. I understand your confusion resulting from NGC's acceptance of PCGS coins in the registry. But that dos not change the facts about crossovers.

 

In the case of CAC, I don't know whether they check the cert numbers of coins (to see if they have previously rejected them) before or after they render an opinion on a given coin. If it's after the coin evaluation, the coin is being viewed objectively. And if it's before, they still change their minds on occasion.

[yonico]

understood. and though i heard different ,you're probably right.

and i do HOPE you're right about CAC

[Kurtdog]

NGC most assuredly does NOT automatically cross over PCGS coins. I understand your confusion resulting from NGC's acceptance of PCGS coins in the registry. But that dos not change the facts about crossovers.

How do you reconcile the fact that they as a matter of course accept the grades for registry purposes but not for crossover purposes? Wishful thinking? I think that's his dilemma, though, if I hear him right.

[Kurtdog]

Sorry, I believe my comment was not well written, let me expand a little and please note that comments that are note posted as "facts", aren't facts

 

As I said in my comment, I did NOT read it anywhere on the NGC website, and I did not get any official NGC comment on the subject of "automatic crossover", but I was told that by several people in the business, one was VERY close to the action so I kinda take his word on it.

 

* FACT: NGC allows PCGS graded coins on it's registry, and automatically gives it the same score as their own graded coins. That goes Only for PCGS coins. ALL COINS GRADED BY PCGS.

 

My Comments: Why's that? If NGC believes some of PCGS's coins might be overgraded, is it not UNFAIR to give pcgs coins the same score and so maybe hurt the registry sets that are made of NGC coins only? I guess they "automatically" trust pcgs to grade these coins correctly..?

I'm not saying NGC are inconsistent with their grading, and am NOT trying to criticise it - just that if they fully trust PCGS's grading - then why not do automatic crossover? And if they don't trust PCGS 100%, why allow pcgs graded coins on the registry for same point score?

 

FACT: crossovers from PCGS are NOT treated as "first time submitted" coins. For crossovers from all other TPG's, you now have to sign a release form that allows NGC to crack the coin out of the slab and examine it as if the coin was submitted raw.

For crossovers from PCGS, however, the coin may be examined in the PCGS slab BEFORE crossing it into an NGC holder.

 

comment: That's a BIG difference.

 

FACT: PCGS won't even grade GSA Morgans or BROWN IKES through the plastic they were packed in by the government/the mint, but will take em out to take a closer look.

 

SARCASTIC FACT: But NGC can grade crossover coins through the PCGS slab plastic, that sometimes has scuffs, scratches and even glue residue on it..

 

Everything in my posts that is not PRESENTED as a fact, is usually not.

It's very possible I'm mistaken..

 

=====

 

Mark, you were right about the CAC question. it does not make sense to me though.

I still think it's very hard (for CAC graders) to keep an "open mind" about a coin, If you check and see that it was rejected before. I find that most people that have slabbed coins and don't agree with the assigned grade, will crack the coin out and send it raw rather than send it in the holder for review.

I believe that A coin that was MISTAKENLY certified as "details" has better chances to make it into a problem-free holder if re-submitted raw, rather than sent in the "details" holder for a review, don't you think?

Why would CAC first check the coin's history, and then try to "subjectively" re-evaluate it? If you know it was rejected before, you'll be LOOKING for the problem on the coin, probably stretching it sometimes..

 

this is from their website:

 

 

" Are the serial numbers of PCGS or NGC coins submitted to CAC for verification recorded? If so, are coins automatically rejected by CAC that have previously been submitted but were not stickered?

 

The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.

 

All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered. "

Good points; well-reasoned.

[RGT]

NGC most assuredly does NOT automatically cross over PCGS coins. I understand your confusion resulting from NGC's acceptance of PCGS coins in the registry. But that dos not change the facts about crossovers.

How do you reconcile the fact that they as a matter of course accept the grades for registry purposes but not for crossover purposes? Wishful thinking? I think that's his dilemma, though, if I hear him right.

 

PCGS coins are innocent until proven guilty. NGC accepts that PCGS coins generally meet their own standards so they let them in the registry. But if you send one in for grading they get the chance to look at it and decide if that particular coin really does match the grade. It would be a bit impractical to require you to send your PCGS coins in for review before letting them in the registry.

[BKW]

NGC most assuredly does NOT automatically cross over PCGS coins. I understand your confusion resulting from NGC's acceptance of PCGS coins in the registry. But that dos not change the facts about crossovers.

How do you reconcile the fact that they as a matter of course accept the grades for registry purposes but not for crossover purposes? Wishful thinking? I think that's his dilemma, though, if I hear him right.

 

PCGS coins are innocent until proven guilty. NGC accepts that PCGS coins generally meet their own standards so they let them in the registry. But if you send one in for grading they get the chance to look at it and decide if that particular coin really does match the grade. It would be a bit impractical to require you to send your PCGS coins in for review before letting them in the registry.

 

Agreed RGT. The registry is also ancillary to NGC's core business which is encapsulating and grading coins. Accepting PCGS coins for registry purposes that may not exactly match NGC standards is not that big a deal from a business and marketing perspective. In fact, allowing PCGS coins in the registry makes good business sense.

 

Automatic crossovers of PCGS coins into NGC holders, on the other hand, goes to the heart of things. Allowing that without holding a coin to NGC standards would directly impact the reputation and integrity of NGC as well as its brand image. Additionally, allowing automatic crossovers at the same grade could also be seen as a de facto admission that PCGS is a "better" grading service (also not good for business).

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Kurtdog]

So. NGC doesn't necessarily agree with the PCGS grades in the registry sets, and that's how that dilemma is reconciled. You see, I thought they did agree with them.

[yonico]

NGC most assuredly does NOT automatically cross over PCGS coins. I understand your confusion resulting from NGC's acceptance of PCGS coins in the registry. But that dos not change the facts about crossovers.

How do you reconcile the fact that they as a matter of course accept the grades for registry purposes but not for crossover purposes? Wishful thinking? I think that's his dilemma, though, if I hear him right.

 

PCGS coins are innocent until proven guilty. NGC accepts that PCGS coins generally meet their own standards so they let them in the registry. But if you send one in for grading they get the chance to look at it and decide if that particular coin really does match the grade. It would be a bit impractical to require you to send your PCGS coins in for review before letting them in the registry.

 

i did not suggest they will review PCGS coins before allowing them on the registry.

 

i was suggesting they should do an ALL-NGC registry (just like PCGS don't take any other TPG's coins on THEIR registry), if they do not agree 100% with ALL PCGS grades.

 

they can't have it both ways....

[yonico]

exactly! @ KurtDog

 

 

 

Accepting PCGS coins for registry purposes that may not exactly match NGC standards is not that big a deal from a business and marketing perspective. In fact, allowing PCGS coins in the registry makes good business sense.

 

it's a VERY BIG DEAL!

why would NGC give the PCGS coins same weight and score as their own graded coins, if they believe they might be overgraded?

 

one more point : PCGS FBL franklins are usually cheaper than NGC FBL Franklins, because they're a little easier on this designation (PCGS only require one of the line sets to be complete (bottom), where NGC requires both).

 

NGC GIVES THE SAME SCORE TO NGC AND TO PCGS FBL FRANKLINS!

 

same story with FT, FSB, FS coins

 

that's just plain wrong. . sorry

[newprepper]

What is the whole purpose of the registry? I may not understand the argument here, it seems to me the registry is a place to showcase your coins, inventory and such. More for fun than anything, even though I know some make it more than it is. they assign points and such, no big deal, not legally binding in any manner, (I think), but when they cross over and slab, that has legal consequences. I agree it makes god business sense, allows more people to participate. But it wouldn't bother me to see them allow maybe 1/3 pcgs-ngc or something to that effect.

[Kurtdog]

but when they cross over and slab, that has legal consequences.

And those would be what?

[yonico]

What is the whole purpose of the registry? I may not understand the argument here, it seems to me the registry is a place to showcase your coins, inventory and such. More for fun than anything, even though I know some make it more than it is. they assign points and such, no big deal, not legally binding in any manner, (I think), but when they cross over and slab, that has legal consequences. I agree it makes god business sense, allows more people to participate. But it wouldn't bother me to see them allow maybe 1/3 pcgs-ngc or something to that effect.

 

when they slab a coin, they simply say it's their OPINION that the coin grades so and so, it has no legal consequences as far as i know.

they do offer to buy the coin back if it has proven to be counterfeit, but this is their courtesy and responsibility, not requirement by law....

[newprepper]

My assumption, probably incorrect is that if certified as original and later found to not be their guarantee would be honored. Many guarantees are legal commitments. you just need to be willing to take the steps. Probably a bad choice of words. They are the experts in the business. just ask them

[Kurtdog]

If in their opinion their opinion is wrong they'll give you your money back--guaranteed.

[newprepper]

If in their opinion their opinion is wrong they'll give you your money back--guaranteed.

 

Correct, but the whole purpose of a guarantee is to avoid legal problems, when they go against their guarantee they open the door for litigation, so saying you have a guarantee implys legal consequences. In reality, companies provide a guarantee so there is a perception you are getting something of value, without it there is no value, if I cracked a coin out of a slab that was an MS68, would you pay the same money for it that you would pay for a graded coin? If not, why not? it's exactly the same coin. But with the guarantee, you have more perceived value.

[Keigwin]

It seems to me that NGC would like to showcase the best coins in its registries. Allowing PCGS coins makes that possible.

 

Shoot, in many series the top registry sets are composed of only PCGS coins. It would be a shame to lose them.

Lance.

[newprepper]

I would say that the decision to allow PCGS coins has very little to do with showcasing coins, but trying to win over customers. If you notice A lot have already spoke about PCGS only allowing PCGS coins in their registry, causing them to come here.

[JIM F.]

My post has NOTHING to do with registry. Please refrain from registry comments, but rather start a new thread on that topic if you wish.

 

Let me revise my original question (and I apologize if the answer was buried in the previous replies) and make it as simple as possible:

 

For NGC to PCGS crossover and vice versa, does the TPG check the slab number to see if was previously submitted. If so, do they treat it as a new crossover submission or automatically reject it?

 

Thank You.

 

 

[Keigwin]

I would say that the decision to allow PCGS coins has very little to do with showcasing coins, but trying to win over customers. If you notice A lot have already spoke about PCGS only allowing PCGS coins in their registry, causing them to come here.

I'm lost.

 

How does allowing PCGS coins win over customers for NGC?

 

Isn't it simply a matter of showing the best coins in their registry?

 

I applaud NGC for that.

Lance.

[Keigwin]

For NGC to PCGS crossover and vice versa, does the TPG check the slab number to see if was previously submitted. If so, do they treat it as a new crossover submission or automatically reject it?

 

Thank You.

 

I doubt they check first, and I can't see any reason why they should. But honestly, I do not know.

 

My best guess is they don't have time for detective work and a judgment is made based on the coin in hand.

Lance.

[newprepper]

My post has NOTHING to do with registry. Please refrain from registry comments, but rather start a new thread on that topic if you wish.

 

 

I apologize jimbucks

[Mozin]

I don't think PCGS bothers to see if an NGC coin has been previously submitted for crossover, BUT I would like to hear from someone who knows for sure.

[RWB]

Are these records 78s, 45s or LPs?

[yonico]

If in their opinion their opinion is wrong they'll give you your money back--guaranteed.

 

exactly what i was going to say

 

i think they should have a 4th party doing their appearance reviews, or their guarantee to replace or pay back the difference on misgraded coins is worth nothing.

they can't check THEMSELVES for mistakes in past grading.