Reasonable returns with problem coins

[HCumberdale]

What is the relevance of how much a dealer paid and how much they are asking?

I see this as completely extraneous information that has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand.

 

Even if you, NGC, PCGS, and ANACS have objective standards (I would argue they are not 100% objective) the point is, is that they are all different. If a coins meets YOUR "objective" standards and you like it - buy it. That is all that matters.

 

Why does real market value matter? Who cares what happened at an HA auction?

If a dealer wants to price a widget that they paid 10 cents for at $1000 is that not their right? If you argue that the price is unreasonable, that GS says the widget should be priced at $1.00 or that HA history shows this particular type of widget typically sells for between .50 - $2, most dealers will tell you that the price stands and you are welcome to go buy from GS and HA.

[newprepper]

I agree, dealer price has zero to do with it, if you found a 1909-s vdb in change in AU grade, would you send it in to be graded and offer it for sale at about 75 dollars, because that would be a price within what you consider to be a reasonable markup that dealers should charge, based on what they paid for an item? My guess is you would sell for a thou or better because that would be FMV, like anybody would

[cpm9ball]

I think this thread has been a big waste of time.

 

Chris

[HCumberdale]

I'm going to also say, that if you exclusively stick to GS and HA history when buying coins, you are going to miss out on the really nice coins. Just my 2 cents.

[Crohnos01]

At the risk of fanning the flames on this topic, I have to agree with what seems to be the majority and say I don't think there should be any expectation for the dealer to even offer to take the coin back if it was bought across the counter on a handshake. The fact that he even offered to take it back with a restocking fee, frankly speaks to a higher quality dealer. Most, I suspect would tell you tough luck.

 

I think you are operating on a higher expectation of the grading "standards" than there really is. Grading is highly subjective, and even professional graders who do nothing but grade coins all day long can end up a grade or two apart on any given coin.

 

A coin sold as an AU50 and grades at XF details is a far cry apart, but honestly; I am a real novice at grading any given coin and even *I* can tell an XF from an AU. Granted however, I do some reading on grades about a particular series before I purchase typically.... So again, if it grades out with that kind of a difference, you can say "shame on you" for the dealer marking it as an AU50, but you also have to say that to the mirror, because you bought it without understanding what you bought at that point.

 

Sorry, just my opinion.

[Kurtdog]

Nutmeg - Sorry, but the universe does not revolve around you.

 

Your comments are beginning to sound like secondary delusions. If you are having a psychotic episode, call 911 and ask for help or go to a hospital.

That pretty much sums it up to me. I'll just add a couple of specific things. One, if you don't know what you're doing when you're buying your coins, well, whose fault is that? And, two, the TPGs aren't the be-all, end-all of coin grading. They're grading for their markets, based on their standards. You want to play in their price guides, this is the kind of thing you're going to run up against from time to time.

[MarkFeld]

I think this thread has been a big waste of time.

 

Chris

 

I disagree. Regardless of how any of us feel about the subject, it is an important one to many collectors (and probably, to a lesser extent, to dealers) and worthy of discussion.

[newprepper]

With the exception of the OP, it has been a one sided argument, so in that respect, it has been a waste of time, because I don't believe anything said is going to convince him otherwise, I may be wrong and frequently am, but this is probably a good conversation for newbies, like myself to contain their expectations about the hobby and business. Should be required reading

[MarkFeld]

With the exception of the OP, it has been a one sided argument, so in that respect, it has been a waste of time, because I don't believe anything said is going to convince him otherwise, I may be wrong and frequently am, but this is probably a good conversation for newbies, like myself to contain their expectations about the hobby and business. Should be required reading

 

It probably doesn't matter if anyone's mind is changed. The fact that you are of the opinion that this thread should be required reading shows that it wasn't a waste of time.

[newprepper]

agreed again

[tejas1836]

I think this thread has been a big waste of time.

 

Chris

 

I disagree. Regardless of how any of us feel about the subject, it is an important one to many collectors (and probably, to a lesser extent, to dealers) and worthy of discussion.

 

I think Chris would agree with you that the topic is a good one for discussion. I think Chris might be saying it's been a waste of time trying to convince the OP that his expectations of returning sight seen coins were unreasonable.

 

Hopefully Chris will be back and clarify what he meant.

[MarkFeld]

I think this thread has been a big waste of time.

 

Chris

 

I disagree. Regardless of how any of us feel about the subject, it is an important one to many collectors (and probably, to a lesser extent, to dealers) and worthy of discussion.

 

I think Chris would agree with you that the topic is a good one for discussion. I think Chris might be saying it's been a waste of time trying to convince the OP that his expectations of returning sight seen coins were unreasonable.

 

Hopefully Chris will be back and clarify what he meant.

 

Agreed. And if Chris doesn't return, his post was a waste of time.

 

 

[DirtyGoldMan]

I agree with Mark, completely. In many cases, the show dealer would tell you to "pound sand", and you would have no real recourse.

 

The show dealer is not a professional grader and should not be held to that standard. Expensive raw coins are often:

1. Raw for a reason

2. Priced accordingly

 

If the coin had graded AU-55, would you have sent the dealer a check?

 

No usually what I see is the coin is priced at Greysheet bid. The dealer thinks a Bust half is MS63 so he puts it out there with that GS bid. Plus he puts the highest hypothetical grade possible on the flip in many cases without objective scale or third party standard. I'm talking reasonable business practice with reasonable mark-ups not improper non-objective grading standards without regard to consequences, that business practice style has nearly ruined numismatics .

 

GS bid is not the standard for pricing properly TPG-graded MS bust halves.

 

BTW, if the coin graded AU-50 and did not sticker, you would still find reason to go back to the dealer for a refund, no?

 

And you still have not answered the question re: the coin coming back in an AU-55 holder. Would you send the dealer some extra cash?

 

I can't remember a show dealer's coin grade higher than the grade they put on the holder, have you? For me the issue is getting a numerical grade not a details result in general. And the tragedy is we are fighting over scraps there is so little money to be made buying raw coins at shows for collectors after the dealer has maxed out the coin.

 

And by the way, for those with a bias in this issue, i.e. selling overpriced raw and improperly graded coins, please state that so we know if you have a bias.

Yes, I have coins purchased raw and slabbed from dealers that ended up in higher grade holders. If this has never happened to you, you have not bought enough or the right coins.

 

As for disclosure, I am a simple collector with a modest collection of coins, the majority of which were obtained over the last ten years.

 

If someone in this thread is biased toward being stubborn and unwilling to listen to reason from numerous people who have obviously more experience with the issue, I believe that they should disclose this bias, preferably in an OP, so the rest of us can stop wasting our time.

[coinman1794]

Mark is correct that terms should be decided at the time of sale, and unless you agreed that the coin would certify as a problem free AU50, then frankly, it is not the dealers responsibility to predict what a third party would say.

 

The services are not 100% consistent, and many coins that come back as "cleaned" can actually grade problem free on a different day. The dealer might have believed the coin was problem free. The coin might be problem free.

 

If you didn't know there was a problem until the coin was slabbed....

[cpm9ball]

I think this thread has been a big waste of time.

 

Chris

 

I disagree. Regardless of how any of us feel about the subject, it is an important one to many collectors (and probably, to a lesser extent, to dealers) and worthy of discussion.

 

I think Chris would agree with you that the topic is a good one for discussion. I think Chris might be saying it's been a waste of time trying to convince the OP that his expectations of returning sight seen coins were unreasonable.

 

Hopefully Chris will be back and clarify what he meant.

 

Agreed. And if Chris doesn't return, his post was a waste of time.

 

 

 

Mark, if you have anything to say to me, please direct your remarks to my interpreter, tejas1836.

 

Chris

[yonico]

Yesterday I returned a coin to a show dealer who sold the type piece as an AU50; it graded XF details "cleaned". Together with the $25 grading and shipping fees the dealer deducted $35 from the return reimbursement a little less than his usual 5% deduction. What are reasonable policies on returns? If a dealer will not get the coin graded and it is being sold for over $500, what are reasonable return policies in this increasingly demanding standard-based coin business? In this case I called the dealer soon after I got the grade from the grading service and he said what his return policy was.

 

Honestly, I do not see why the dealer would even take the coin back and give you any cash back.

 

Any coin I sell at coin shows or on eBay, I clearly specify that once removed from the original 2x2 flip it's housed in - cannot be returned.

 

How would I know that's the coin I sold you that you're returning??

How would I know how much you paid for it (if at a show, sometime it's a trade, or sometimes you bargain and get a coin for $200 while the holder reads $220).

 

[Thats besides the fact that you had time to examine the coin in hand, agrees to pay the price on it, and if the TPG didn't agree to slab it has nothing to do with that. If you can't recognize problem coins, you can buy certified coins only]

[newprepper]

Don't hold back yonico, let us know how you really feel, haha

[MarkFeld]

Yesterday I returned a coin to a show dealer who sold the type piece as an AU50; it graded XF details "cleaned". Together with the $25 grading and shipping fees the dealer deducted $35 from the return reimbursement a little less than his usual 5% deduction. What are reasonable policies on returns? If a dealer will not get the coin graded and it is being sold for over $500, what are reasonable return policies in this increasingly demanding standard-based coin business? In this case I called the dealer soon after I got the grade from the grading service and he said what his return policy was.

 

Honestly, I do not see why the dealer would even take the coin back and give you any cash back.

 

Any coin I sell at coin shows or on eBay, I clearly specify that once removed from the original 2x2 flip it's housed in - cannot be returned.

 

How would I know that's the coin I sold you that you're returning??

How would I know how much you paid for it (if at a show, sometime it's a trade, or sometimes you bargain and get a coin for $200 while the holder reads $220).

 

[Thats besides the fact that you had time to examine the coin in hand, agrees to pay the price on it, and if the TPG didn't agree to slab it has nothing to do with that. If you can't recognize problem coins, you can buy certified coins only]

 

What if you did know it was the same coin, determined that it was in the same condition and knew what the buyer had paid? What type of buy-back would you offer?

[World Colonial]

I think this person's expectations are too high. As soimeone who MUST buy all their coins from images or sight unseen (the only exception being at the few coins shows I have attended), I have encountered this problem many times, including twice this year.

 

The first instance I bought two Peru pillars raw from a Spanish auction house. When I received them, it was obvious that they had been cleaned or lightly polished and this was not disclosed in the auction listing which I think it should have been.

 

With the second, I bought a South Africa ZAR from a UK auction firm. I specifically called and spoke to one of their cataloguers and asked him specific questions to describe the coin. When I received it, the coin detail was consistent with the image, but the surface preservation was awful.

 

On the first auction, I just ate the loss and did not attempt to return the coins because I did not have any cause for it. On the second, the auction firm was not required to do anything about it but they graciously did after I explained to them that if absentee bidders cannot rely on their descritions or their employees, then there is no point in bidding on their lots. They will only win the lousy coins and lose out on the good ones.

 

The way that I normally manage my risk on ungraded coins is through the price I pay. Since there is nothing free in life, I automatically assume that any raw coin I buy is a potential problem coin which is why I only buy them at low prices.

[newprepper]

Dead thread, no response from original poster

[MarkFeld]

I think this person's expectations are too high. As soimeone who MUST buy all their coins from images or sight unseen (the only exception being at the few coins shows I have attended), I have encountered this problem many times, including twice this year.

 

The first instance I bought two Peru pillars raw from a Spanish auction house. When I received them, it was obvious that they had been cleaned or lightly polished and this was not disclosed in the auction listing which I think it should have been.

 

With the second, I bought a South Africa ZAR from a UK auction firm. I specifically called and spoke to one of their cataloguers and asked him specific questions to describe the coin. When I received it, the coin detail was consistent with the image, but the surface preservation was awful.

 

On the first auction, I just ate the loss and did not attempt to return the coins because I did not have any cause for it. On the second, the auction firm was not required to do anything about it but they graciously did after I explained to them that if absentee bidders cannot rely on their descritions or their employees, then there is no point in bidding on their lots. They will only win the lousy coins and lose out on the good ones.

 

The way that I normally manage my risk on ungraded coins is through the price I pay. Since there is nothing free in life, I automatically assume that any raw coin I buy is a potential problem coin which is why I only buy them at low prices.

 

Instead of trying to protect yourself by buying coins at seemingly low prices (and thereby, almost certainly missing out on nice coins) why not buy coins with return privileges, instead? Skip the auctions, which are far less likely to provide return privileges, and buy from sellers who do offer them.

[yonico]

Yesterday I returned a coin to a show dealer who sold the type piece as an AU50; it graded XF details "cleaned". Together with the $25 grading and shipping fees the dealer deducted $35 from the return reimbursement a little less than his usual 5% deduction. What are reasonable policies on returns? If a dealer will not get the coin graded and it is being sold for over $500, what are reasonable return policies in this increasingly demanding standard-based coin business? In this case I called the dealer soon after I got the grade from the grading service and he said what his return policy was.

 

Honestly, I do not see why the dealer would even take the coin back and give you any cash back.

 

Any coin I sell at coin shows or on eBay, I clearly specify that once removed from the original 2x2 flip it's housed in - cannot be returned.

 

How would I know that's the coin I sold you that you're returning??

How would I know how much you paid for it (if at a show, sometime it's a trade, or sometimes you bargain and get a coin for $200 while the holder reads $220).

 

[Thats besides the fact that you had time to examine the coin in hand, agrees to pay the price on it, and if the TPG didn't agree to slab it has nothing to do with that. If you can't recognize problem coins, you can buy certified coins only]

 

What if you did know it was the same coin, determined that it was in the same condition and knew what the buyer had paid? What type of buy-back would you offer?

 

I guess if I did know it was the same coin, I'd be willing to buy it back and charge maybe 10%-15% for "re-stocking".. But it is usually impossible to identify a coin I sold and remember the condition it was in when I sold it.

 

it is, of course, different when the buyer is a regular customer that i know, or another dealer.

 

I think the most important thing to remember is that if the coin is out of the original holder I don't HAVE to take it back, and if I do take it - I don't HAVE to Pay back the full sell price.

 

[if the coin had a MAJOR problem (such as Not-Genuine, altered mint mark etc..) I will take full responsibility for it and will refund 100% of the buy price, as long as I can confirm that I sold this coin]

 

 

 

 

 

[yonico]

I think this person's expectations are too high. As soimeone who MUST buy all their coins from images or sight unseen (the only exception being at the few coins shows I have attended), I have encountered this problem many times, including twice this year.

 

The first instance I bought two Peru pillars raw from a Spanish auction house. When I received them, it was obvious that they had been cleaned or lightly polished and this was not disclosed in the auction listing which I think it should have been.

 

With the second, I bought a South Africa ZAR from a UK auction firm. I specifically called and spoke to one of their cataloguers and asked him specific questions to describe the coin. When I received it, the coin detail was consistent with the image, but the surface preservation was awful.

 

On the first auction, I just ate the loss and did not attempt to return the coins because I did not have any cause for it. On the second, the auction firm was not required to do anything about it but they graciously did after I explained to them that if absentee bidders cannot rely on their descritions or their employees, then there is no point in bidding on their lots. They will only win the lousy coins and lose out on the good ones.

 

The way that I normally manage my risk on ungraded coins is through the price I pay. Since there is nothing free in life, I automatically assume that any raw coin I buy is a potential problem coin which is why I only buy them at low prices.

 

Since you've bought the coins online sight unseen, I agree you have the right to examine the coins in hand and return them if you didn't like the way they looked like - If the pics were misleading in some way..

But most of the problems you describe (evidence of cleaning, preservation of surfaces awful), can be seen through the holder, and so there was no reason to take the coin out of the flip. If the coin is still in the flip and they refuse to take it back - I'd agree that's a problem.

I'd sometimes have a customer ask me to take a coin out of the holder to check the luster, or color on coin when you tilt it against light, and I do. But if they take it out of the holder after buying the coin, at home - that's a different story.

[yonico]

Yes, I have coins purchased raw and slabbed from dealers that ended up in higher grade holders. If this has never happened to you, you have not bought enough or the right coins.

 

Absolutely. Happens all the time.

Mostly with raw coins, but also with certified coins.

 

I actually bought a CERTIFIED (NGC) 1879 morgan dollar a couple months back at a coin show in Parsippany NJ that was graded MS64, and I thought was undergraded. I paid 64 ASK price (I never paid ask, this time I did) for it, and it came back PCGS MS65.

I paid $130 + PCGS fees, and got back a $700+ coin.

 

I always look for coins like these, that the dealers "undergraded".

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Yesterday I returned a coin to a show dealer who sold the type piece as an AU50; it graded XF details "cleaned". Together with the $25 grading and shipping fees the dealer deducted $35 from the return reimbursement a little less than his usual 5% deduction. What are reasonable policies on returns? If a dealer will not get the coin graded and it is being sold for over $500, what are reasonable return policies in this increasingly demanding standard-based coin business? In this case I called the dealer soon after I got the grade from the grading service and he said what his return policy was.

 

Honestly, I do not see why the dealer would even take the coin back and give you any cash back.

 

Any coin I sell at coin shows or on eBay, I clearly specify that once removed from the original 2x2 flip it's housed in - cannot be returned.

 

How would I know that's the coin I sold you that you're returning??

How would I know how much you paid for it (if at a show, sometime it's a trade, or sometimes you bargain and get a coin for $200 while the holder reads $220).

 

[Thats besides the fact that you had time to examine the coin in hand, agrees to pay the price on it, and if the TPG didn't agree to slab it has nothing to do with that. If you can't recognize problem coins, you can buy certified coins only]

 

What if you did know it was the same coin, determined that it was in the same condition and knew what the buyer had paid? What type of buy-back would you offer?

 

I guess if I did know it was the same coin, I'd be willing to buy it back and charge maybe 10%-15% for "re-stocking".. But it is usually impossible to identify a coin I sold and remember the condition it was in when I sold it.

 

it is, of course, different when the buyer is a regular customer that i know, or another dealer.

 

I think the most important thing to remember is that if the coin is out of the original holder I don't HAVE to take it back, and if I do take it - I don't HAVE to Pay back the full sell price.

 

[if the coin had a MAJOR problem (such as Not-Genuine, altered mint mark etc..) I will take full responsibility for it and will refund 100% of the buy price, as long as I can confirm that I sold this coin]

 

Thanks. (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

[World Colonial]

I think this person's expectations are too high. As soimeone who MUST buy all their coins from images or sight unseen (the only exception being at the few coins shows I have attended), I have encountered this problem many times, including twice this year.

 

The first instance I bought two Peru pillars raw from a Spanish auction house. When I received them, it was obvious that they had been cleaned or lightly polished and this was not disclosed in the auction listing which I think it should have been.

 

With the second, I bought a South Africa ZAR from a UK auction firm. I specifically called and spoke to one of their cataloguers and asked him specific questions to describe the coin. When I received it, the coin detail was consistent with the image, but the surface preservation was awful.

 

On the first auction, I just ate the loss and did not attempt to return the coins because I did not have any cause for it. On the second, the auction firm was not required to do anything about it but they graciously did after I explained to them that if absentee bidders cannot rely on their descritions or their employees, then there is no point in bidding on their lots. They will only win the lousy coins and lose out on the good ones.

 

The way that I normally manage my risk on ungraded coins is through the price I pay. Since there is nothing free in life, I automatically assume that any raw coin I buy is a potential problem coin which is why I only buy them at low prices.

 

Instead of trying to protect yourself by buying coins at seemingly low prices (and thereby, almost certainly missing out on nice coins) why not buy coins with return privileges, instead? Skip the auctions, which are far less likely to provide return privileges, and buy from sellers who do offer them.

 

Unfortunately, the coins I buy most of the time are not available from dealers except very occasionally. I have to buy them and maybe take my chances when they are available or not at all. But if you ever to decide to buy and sell "darkside" coins, I will certainly be glad to buy them from you.

[World Colonial]

In this particular example, the coins were from auctions and did not have a stated return priviledge.

 

Once I did buy a coin as you describe from a dealer in another state. They described the coin to me over the phone and when I received it, not only did they describe it completely incorrectly, the coin was harshly cleaned. It was blatantly obvious even without removing it from the flip. I did return that coin.