NGC vs PCGS Lincoln Cent Cost / Value

[Dawsonlinik-migration]

I've just this year began collecting lincoln cent, proof sets and Halfs of all varieties. One thing continues to bug me is trying to tell the difference in the grading standars between PCGS and NGC.

 

I started awhile back collecting MS66RD wheat and prefer the NGC coins because of the pricing.

 

Anyone got some helpful comments on this.

 

Thanks // Bud

[coinman_23885]

No offense to our host, but I think PCGS is stricter on this series (both TPGs have their strengths IMO, and this is one of PCGS's). I would value a NGC MS67 RD as roughly equal to the price of a PCGS MS66 or MS66+ RD example. There are obviously exceptions.

 

With this said, I like NGC's guarantee much better since it covers color designation. PCGS did guarantee the color at one point, but without much warning terminated its color guarantee (I'm not quite sure how they got away with this - while it claimed only to apply to prospective transactions, the burden to prove purchase before the termination date is on you; moreover the guarantee was part of the value in having them certify the coin to begin with). Sorry for my mini-rant.

[Houston Investor]

I don't believe in making that kind of generalization and I don't drink the Koolaid that PCGS coins are worth more than NGC coins by any stretch of the imagination. The coins either makes the grade or it doesn't. Everyone has their opinion (or agenda) on this and I would advise care in someone trying to hose you with theirs. I had a guy come up to my table at a show recently promoting the PCGS is better than NGC and trying to low ball me on some NGC coins I had for sale while pushing low end PCGS issues at me. It appeared he was trying to unload some of his sight unseen trash for my material which had been cherrypicked for qauality.

 

I have taken tables at shows since 1990 and for me it is the coin and where it fits in the grade range. I inventory both NGC and PCGS coins and according to the 3-9-12 Certified Coin Market indicator shows PCGS coins at 80.70% vs NGC at 81.12% (higher than PCGS).

 

Consequently for pricing / valuation its a moot issue for me and not just because of the CMI.

 

I would advise that copper coins carry the risk of damage from oxidation, salt air, etc. over time (even in slabs) and especially in areas of high humidity. How you enjoy your hobby is your business - I have seen people prefer matched sets of either TPG.

[jom]

No offense to our host, but I think PCGS is stricter on this series (both TPGs have their strengths IMO, and this is one of PCGS's). I would value a NGC MS67 RD as roughly equal to the price of a PCGS MS66 or MS66+ RD example. There are obviously exceptions.

 

With this said, I like NGC's guarantee much better since it covers color designation. PCGS did guarantee the color at one point, but without much warning terminated its color guarantee (I'm not quite sure how they got away with this - while it claimed only to apply to prospective transactions, the burden to prove purchase before the termination date is on you; moreover the guarantee was part of the value in having them certify the coin to begin with). Sorry for my mini-rant.

 

I have to take issue with this but not what you might think. If you say PCGS has stricter grading on Lincolns I can do nothing but agree since I don't follow the series.

 

However, I take issue with you stating that this is somehow an "offense" to NGC. But at the same time you say that NGC has stuck with their guarantee whereas PCGS has somehow got away with abandoning theirs. To me that's MUCH more of an "offense" to PCGS...in fact it makes the look like a joke, IMO. How DID they get away with this? Kool Aid?

 

Besides how is a "stricter" grade on a series "better"? To me, consistency is by far more important. So is PCGS more consistent?

 

Just some thoughts...

 

jom

[Dawsonlinik-migration]

This weekend I took 10 PCGS 40's Lincoln 66 and 10 NGC. I actually looked at each coin and made notes as to marks, scratches and imperfections. I then compared all coins side by side under an Electrix 5x halogen inspection glass. Then took all the coins and looked at the cameo's and fileld for scratches and general condition with a 60x jewelers loop and found that about equal better / worse 5 PCGS / 5 NGC were better or worse than the other. The PCGS coins seemed to have almost the exact color and luster as the NGC.

 

Honestly I think I'm getting the best deal in the world. Love my NGC coins: and in the final analysis... that's what it's all about isn't it?

 

OF COURSE I AM DEFINTELY BIASED.

 

Thanks for the responses. // Bud

 

 

[leeg]

The "Kool-Aid" drinkers feel PCGS is better so they pay up for them.

[James_OldeTowne]

I've just this year began collecting lincoln cent, proof sets and Halfs of all varieties. One thing continues to bug me is trying to tell the difference in the grading standars between PCGS and NGC.

 

I started awhile back collecting MS66RD wheat and prefer the NGC coins because of the pricing.

 

Anyone got some helpful comments on this.

 

Thanks // Bud

The question pops up time and time again, and you've come to the right place for an honest answer.

 

The quick general response is: Buy the NGC coins because they will cost you less overall.

 

So what if it's even true that "PCGS Lincolns sell for more"? All that would mean is that YOU PAY MORE.

 

It DOES NOT MATTER whether or not there's a difference in quality between NGC MS-67 and PCGS-67, since again, in the end, whatever you will be able to sell "for more", is going to cost you more.

 

Unless you are amazingly wealthy or absolutely committed to the PCGS registry, again, very simply, the smart money says to buy the coins in from the grading service where you will get the most for your money.

 

And I will put it the other way too: if there's a series where PCGS coins sell for LESS, then that is where the smart money goes.

[coinman_23885]

The "Kool-Aid" drinkers feel PCGS is better so they pay up for them.

 

I don't think you're referring to me as a "Kool-Aid" drinker, but just to clarify, my comments weren't meant to say that one service is better than another, only that the two companies sometimes grade certain series differently. This is not to say that one is correct and the other wrong, only that this variation can affect the final market value. I purchase both NGC and PCGS coins, and at the moment, NGC probably has a slight edge in terms of the number of certified coins in my collection.

[coinman_23885]

How DID they get away with this?

jom

 

No one has called them on this yet. I suppose when a $30k+ coin turns and PCGS refuses, then lawyers will become involved and PCGS will change its tune or learn to make an exception.

 

With regards to consistency, I think NGC is overall more consistent, but I would make an exception for this series and Silver Washington Quarters. I think PCGS in more consistent on these in my opinion. Again, not a scientific study, I'm just sharing my personal experiences here.

[jom]

Honestly I think I'm getting the best deal in the world. Love my NGC coins: and in the final analysis... that's what it's all about isn't it?

 

The KEY here is: You LOVE your coins. That should end the discussion.

 

But in a practical sense you should continue to learn how to both grade and PRICE (used as a verb here) Lincoln Cents. That way you'll know MORE than the grader at the TPG about Lincolns. You can then pick and choose and find value.

 

jom

[brg5658]

No offense to our host, but I think PCGS is stricter on this series (both TPGs have their strengths IMO, and this is one of PCGS's). I would value a NGC MS67 RD as roughly equal to the price of a PCGS MS66 or MS66+ RD example. There are obviously exceptions.

 

 

Suppose I start a TPG service, and I never (I mean, dogmatically never) grade a Lincoln Cent higher than MS66RD. Does that mean that my company is somehow better because I'm "stricter"? Absolutely not.

 

As someone else has already stated, I'll take "consistency" over "strictness" any day.

[brg5658]

I mocked up this image a while back, and I usually keep it in my arsenal now. I think it's appropriate in this thread.

 

[lehigh96]

I wonder what would happen if that image was posted ATS. Anyone brave enough to find out?

[jerseycat10]

I will sacrifice my account to do this, but only with brg's approval.

[coinman_23885]

No offense to our host, but I think PCGS is stricter on this series (both TPGs have their strengths IMO, and this is one of PCGS's). I would value a NGC MS67 RD as roughly equal to the price of a PCGS MS66 or MS66+ RD example. There are obviously exceptions.

 

 

Suppose I start a TPG service, and I never (I mean, dogmatically never) grade a Lincoln Cent higher than MS66RD. Does that mean that my company is somehow better because I'm "stricter"? Absolutely not.

 

As someone else has already stated, I'll take "consistency" over "strictness" any day.

 

I never said or implied that one was "better." You can start your own TPG and if you call the same coin MS60, NGC MS67, and PCGS MS66 the coins are all worth the same (to me personally). What I am saying is that the NGC MS67 RD grade does not usually equate to the PCGS MS67 RD grade for this series IMO. Again there are exceptions (and I possess a couple that I think are dead on).

[coinman_23885]

I mocked up this image a while back, and I usually keep it in my arsenal now. I think it's appropriate in this thread.

 

 

 

I would love to see the thread replies (if someone posts it on the PCGS Forums) before PCGS deletes the thread.

[James_OldeTowne]

No offense to our host, but I think PCGS is stricter on this series (both TPGs have their strengths IMO, and this is one of PCGS's). I would value a NGC MS67 RD as roughly equal to the price of a PCGS MS66 or MS66+ RD example. There are obviously exceptions.

Suppose I start a TPG service, and I never (I mean, dogmatically never) grade a Lincoln Cent higher than MS66RD. Does that mean that my company is somehow better because I'm "stricter"? Absolutely not.

 

As someone else has already stated, I'll take "consistency" over "strictness" any day.

Exactly. "Strict" is... yet again... one of those badly abused terms used in numismatics.

 

In my experience, PCGS is neither noticeably stricter nor noticeably looser in any series at all! Both companies grade to their respective standards (as far a I can perceive them) with more or less equal consistency, in my opinion.

[coinman_23885]

Both companies grade to their respective standards (as far a I can perceive them) with more or less equal consistency, in my opinion.

 

Are you agreeing that the standards are different on some series? If so, I completely agree; I just chose to phrase my posts differently.

[Raisethis2]

This is simple, 20 years from now the value of any coin in either holder will be determined by the coin itself, holder won't matter.

 

For the record, holder doesn't matter today. There are some Dealers who think they do but that mindset usually results in No Sale.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Both companies grade to their respective standards (as far a I can perceive them) with more or less equal consistency, in my opinion.

 

Are you agreeing that the standards are different on some series? If so, I completely agree; I just chose to phrase my posts differently.

Absolutely, they have different standards.

 

Neither has "better" or "worse" standards than the other, however, as far as I'm concerned.

[bluel-migration]

My idea is to start a TPG that specializes in cross-overs, and as a rule always docks 1-2 grade points for every PCGS, 2-3 for every NGC, 5-6 for everything else. Costs will be low because we won't even bother to look at the coin. The company should be more respected than PCGS very quickly, it'll make a fortune.

 

I thought the purpose of a TPG was to grade correctly, not simply give an undergrade, but that's all some people seem to care about. If something is correctly graded, they feel "meh", but if it's undergraded, they'll bid higher than if it had been correctly graded.

 

As for lincoln cents, I think the hard data shows it's about equal, but resale data shows PCGS is slightly higher priced... fwiw.

[jom]

Absolutely, they have different standards.

 

Neither has "better" or "worse" standards than the other, however, as far as I'm concerned.

 

That's all true but the problem I've noticed over the years is that the "standards" change. By the mid-2000s I could honestly say that NGC was more consistent in this regard. It might have changed since however....I don't know.

 

But that's why I mentioned above consistency is superior because the number you put on a slab doesn't mean much if the standard that number is based on keeps moving.

 

I never said or implied that one was "better."

 

The problem in your original statement was to apologize to our hosts (NGC). That kind of implied they were doing something wrong...that's why I took exception. No big deal though...I just wanted to point out that being strict isn't the "know all end all". In fact, it's rather irrelevant.

 

I mocked up this image a while back, and I usually keep it in my arsenal now. I think it's appropriate in this thread.

 

You should have him blasting through a wall like on Family Guy. heh

 

I thought the purpose of a TPG was to grade correctly, not simply give an undergrade, but that's all some people seem to care about. If something is correctly graded, they feel "meh", but if it's undergraded, they'll bid higher than if it had been correctly graded.

 

Eggxactly! If they "undergrade" isn't that hurting the present owner of the coin? PCGS used to do this a lot. I remember at the Benson sale (Superior or was it then Goldbergs) they bragged about getting all kinds of undergrades. To me that's a rip off (potentially) to the consigners...although in some cases it could be that buyers overpay for such material.

 

jom

[brg5658]

I will sacrifice my account to do this, but only with brg's approval.

 

AJ (jersey) you have my permission.

[lehigh96]

I will sacrifice my account to do this, but only with brg's approval.

 

AJ (jersey) you have my permission.

 

Just a note, can you inform us when you will be doing this so that we can watch it live. I have a feeling it won't last very long, like a fart in the wind.

[brg5658]

I will sacrifice my account to do this, but only with brg's approval.

 

AJ (jersey) you have my permission.

 

Just a note, can you inform us when you will be doing this so that we can watch it live. I have a feeling it won't last very long, like a fart in the wind.

 

[jerseycat10]

, i am afraid to post that image for legal reasons... but i will post a gigantic kool-aid picture without their logo. Ill post the link when complete.

 

 

UPDATE:

 

Posted at bottom of this thread.

 

linky

 

If it doesn't attraction any attention, Ill start a whole new thread.

[lehigh96]

, i am afraid to post that image for legal reasons... but i will post a gigantic kool-aid picture without their logo. Ill post the link when complete.

 

 

UPDATE:

 

Posted at bottom of this thread.

 

linky

 

If it doesn't attraction any attention, Ill start a whole new thread.

 

The kool-aid guy on his own won't do anything. There is a member over there whose avatar is a the kool-aid guy inside a circle with a line through it. The PCGS logo on the cup is they key to the whole photo. Don't worry, they won't sue you, but they will ban you, and quickly. In fact, if you keep pushing in that thread, you are going lose your privileges.

[TomB]

The two companies have their own, proprietary grading standards that have evolved and developed over their quarter-century each of grading coins. The markets have reacted to their bodies of work as well as their branding missions. Learn to grade; learn to spot superior coins; and learn to spot problems. If you take my advice, you will be ahead of the vast majority of others.

[James_OldeTowne]

, i am afraid to post that image for legal reasons... but i will post a gigantic kool-aid picture without their logo. Ill post the link when complete.

 

 

UPDATE:

 

Posted at bottom of this thread.

 

linky

 

If it doesn't attraction any attention, Ill start a whole new thread.

 

The kool-aid guy on his own won't do anything. There is a member over there whose avatar is a the kool-aid guy inside a circle with a line through it. The PCGS logo on the cup is they key to the whole photo. Don't worry, they won't sue you, but they will ban you, and quickly. In fact, if you keep pushing in that thread, you are going lose your privileges.

 

(from the PCGS thread...) Now for the best part(s) of the story: When Dad spoke with Mr. Hall, he was very apologetic about the length of time that my coin sat on his desk, that I had the record for the longest time that a coin had been with him for review (I think holding a record is neat!)

That is one of the wackiest things I've ever read. Someone thinks it's "neat" to hold the record for the worst customer service timeframe in PCGS history?

 

Wow. I don't know what else to say.

[brg5658]

, i am afraid to post that image for legal reasons... but i will post a gigantic kool-aid picture without their logo. Ill post the link when complete.

 

 

UPDATE:

 

Posted at bottom of this thread.

 

linky

 

If it doesn't attraction any attention, Ill start a whole new thread.

 

The kool-aid guy on his own won't do anything. There is a member over there whose avatar is a the kool-aid guy inside a circle with a line through it. The PCGS logo on the cup is they key to the whole photo. Don't worry, they won't sue you, but they will ban you, and quickly. In fact, if you keep pushing in that thread, you are going lose your privileges.

 

(from the PCGS thread...) Now for the best part(s) of the story: When Dad spoke with Mr. Hall, he was very apologetic about the length of time that my coin sat on his desk, that I had the record for the longest time that a coin had been with him for review (I think holding a record is neat!)

That is one of the wackiest things I've ever read. Someone thinks it's "neat" to hold the record for the worst customer service timeframe in PCGS history?

 

Wow. I don't know what else to say.

 

It's all a part of the "disease". Other symptoms include (but are not limited to):

 

1. Having a set of the worst graded coins is "neat" (Lowball sets)

2. Paying MS65 money for an AU58 coin for your "Everyman set" is "neat".

3. Publishing a priceguide of "wishful" prices, which leads people to believe their coins are actually worth that much is "neat".

 

The DSM-IV-TR writers could have a heyday with this material...