CAC??? WHY BOTHER???

[Raisethis2]

When a coin is shipped for review and doesn't achieve a CAC Sticker, the absence of a simple explanation just makes customers (like me) less willing to try again with something different. In the same way I've received coins from NGC saying "Improperly Cleaned" or "Artificially Toned" at least I've learned a lesson about what to look for. With no reason behind a rejection the only logical conclusion to a CAC rejection then must be that the coin is over graded to some degree in their opinion, right?

 

 

[copper toning]

What about an OGH with a green bean?

 

What does this do to the value? Many novice collectors believe that all ogh are top end. So does the green bring the ogh value down if a collector believes it will not upgrade?

[FishyOne]

When a coin is shipped for review and doesn't achieve a CAC Sticker, the absence of a simple explanation just makes customers (like me) less willing to try again with something different. In the same way I've received coins from NGC saying "Improperly Cleaned" or "Artificially Toned" at least I've learned a lesson about what to look for. With no reason behind a rejection the only logical conclusion to a CAC rejection then must be that the coin is over graded to some degree in their opinion, right?

 

 

No. CAC stickers coins that are solid for the grade or better. A coin can be accurately graded and not sticker. It would be low end for the given grade in their expert opinion.

 

I've sent about 100 coins to CAC. I'd guess 70 of them stickered with 1 gold sticker. Out of the 30 that didn't sticker there was only 1 or 2 that I disagreed with. I knew the others were marginal but thought I'd give it a shot.

 

I took this pic a couple years ago. Much of it has been sold.

 

[coinman_23885]

What about an OGH with a green bean?

 

What does this do to the value? Many novice collectors believe that all ogh are top end. So does the green bring the ogh value down if a collector believes it will not upgrade?

 

I had wondered this myself. If you have a rattler with a green CAC sticker, would you be better off posting a picture of the coin without the CAC sticker or to peel the sticker off?

[Mark T]

For $10/coin, you get a (second) highly expert opinion.

 

And if CAC stickers the coin, there is the possibility of greater liquidity and/or a better price when you want to sell.

 

CAC sometimes catches problems that the major TPG's and owners/submitters of the coins miss. So, it can be educational, even for knowledgeable collectors and dealers.

 

All things considered, I think CAC's service is a bargain.

 

I agree with Mark, especially with the "catches problems that the major TPG's and owners miss" part.

CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade. If there is a problem there is no sticker. I have had my feelings hurt on several occasions by the folks at CAC, but that's exactly what I pay them for. I know when it comes back with a sticker I can tell someone that I have a CAC coin for sale and there are no concerns by the buyer that the coin is not up to the grade. I have yet to send back a CAC coin, I can't say that abot all slabed coins I have bought.

 

 

Wheats:

You are not making any sense here. CAC does look for problems with coins; a problem with a coin is a reason why that coin will not get a sticker. As an example – if CAC found that a gold coin was puttied – that would be catching a problem. The reason CAC does not verify a coin is because they found something that was wrong with the coin – thus catching a problem.

You did not understand what I said. By the time the coin is sent to CAC it has already been slabbed and graded. The problem should have been cought then. Cac will not sticker if it does not meet their specifications, but they will not tell you or me that the coin will not sticker or what the problem(and by problem, I mean why it will not sticker ie. not solid for the grade) is unless we own the coin and send it back in to CAC. By then it too late for you and me, we now own the problem.

Wheat

 

 

Wow I think you are missing the point. The reason CAC was formed was because there were so many problem and over graded coins certified by the TPG’s. Obviously the TPG’s were getting loose and sloppy and missing things. Thus the TPG’s missed issues with coins that would have either kept them out of a holder as well as coins that were over graded or very weak for the grade. Just because a coin does not get a CAC sticker does not mean there was a problem – it could be as simple as the coin being very weak for the grade. I have had many coin’s certified by CAC and a number rejected. They won’t send an explanation as to why your coin did not pass but I have called and spoke to JA about why some of my coins did not pass.

I might be mistaken, but I think that's what I said.

After spending my entire adult lifetime in law enforcement, I think I learned to realize that some conversations are like trying to teach a pig to whistle

you are just wasting your time and all you are going to do is make the pig mad.

 

 

That is not what you said.

Let me quote you:

“CAC does not catch the problems. They certify that there are no problems with the coin in the assigned grade”

I simply said that CAC will also catch problems, why is this so hard for you to grasp ??

 

 

[World Colonial]

I agree with your post and the subsequent one by Walker Fan. I am more "investor" than collector I admit but it differs depending upon the series. But in one of them, what you describe is exactly what has happened not with CAC since to my knowledge they do not handle world coins, but with TPG.

 

On this other message board, a disproportionate number of the posts are about money. I would describe the sentiments there as "chearleading". Most of them do not seem to care about whether they will ever be able to complete their collections, but apparently only about whether they can turn them into a windfall for their retirement or the like. And no coin is ever overpriced either, no matter how absurd its price to others.

 

Everyone likes to make money when they sell but pricing out the majority of collectors out of a substantial minority of coins is unhealthy for the hobby. Without the collector, there can be no hobby and therefore "investment" market. In my opinion, the US market is big and deep enough where it can accomodate what I would describe as the existing exorbitant prices for so many coins, but most others cannot. These people just do not get it.

 

When I resumed collecting in 1998, I chose not to collect US coins precisely because of their price to value proposition. For this series, I liked collecting them far more when they were cheaper and have actually sold most of my better coins because of the price run up.

[coinman1794]

 

Everyone likes to make money when they sell but pricing out the majority of collectors out of a substantial minority of coins is unhealthy for the hobby.

 

Are you saying that the prices on a "substantial minority" of coins that are CAC accepted should not be higher than they are for the vast majority of coins that will not CAC?

 

Those coins are already worth more, before the CAC sticker. It is still possible to cherry-pick PQ coins at average prices in auction venues, but the same coins can sell for substantially more when they are accurately described and offered directly to knowledgably numismatists.Collectors are becoming more and more sophisticated, and the market is FINALLY adapting to keep up. The overall effect of CAC is making it easier for more people to recognize the highest quality coins, bringing the cream to the top, so to speak. A coin that would have been overlooked at auction is now given extra attention because of a CAC sticker.

[Oldtrader3]

" CAC would go out of business if the TPG's did their job better."

 

You are under the erroneous assumption that the business model of the CAC is to sticker coins. Period.

 

The actual business model, as John Albanese explained to me at the Milwaukee ANA, is to be a market-maker for CAC-stickered coins. He expected that the stickering activity should draw down over time.

 

You are putting words in my mouth, please don't. I am aware of why CAC was founded directly from John Albanese's writings, pertaining to what he wrote and having read it, when they first went into this venture. I stand by what I said and it does not contradict you. Plus, I am not holding my breath that CAC will go out of business within my life span, what there is left of it!

 

There are too many other personal agendas in this hobby to ever put CAC out of business for doing what they do, that is unless, those who are doing what they should not be doing take over the hobby or stop what they are doing!

[James_OldeTowne]

IMHO, this falls back in the TPG's laps. If they miss putty and other problem coins which they are being paid to catch, the TPG's are not really performing at the level of their business plan commitment which I would consider satisfactory.

...

The TPG's need to tighten up and worry more about the financial impact that this has on their reputation and customers, than just focus on the bottom line of profit. CAC would go out of business if the TPG's did their job better.

It's a bit of an unfair assessment. MANY of the problems with puttied coins, AT coins, etc., are not apparent on the coins until years after they are slabbed. It is very possible for the CAC to miss the same problems with freshly slabbed coins.

 

CAC has a large advantage in that they are evaluating coins that (usually) have had plenty of time to "turn" in the holder.

 

In other words, for many of the coins that CAC rejects now as having problems, I'd bet that you could send them back to the TPGs, and the TPGs would catch the same mistakes.

 

I can say that for me alone, I've reported 4 stickered coins to CAC that had problems, and they agreed, so by no means do they catch all the problems. Nobody can. And as mentioned, many problems simply will not be caught until years later, after the problem has had time to develop.

[Oldtrader3]

That is certainly the case James, Bondo or whatever tinted putty that was used will oxidise and even maybe shrink, revealing a seam, over time on a coin and will become much more apparent than when the coin is freshly slabbed.

[copper toning]

I agree with your post and the subsequent one by Walker Fan. I am more "investor" than collector I admit but it differs depending upon the series. But in one of them, what you describe is exactly what has happened not with CAC since to my knowledge they do not handle world coins, but with TPG.

 

On this other message board, a disproportionate number of the posts are about money. I would describe the sentiments there as "chearleading". Most of them do not seem to care about whether they will ever be able to complete their collections, but apparently only about whether they can turn them into a windfall for their retirement or the like. And no coin is ever overpriced either, no matter how absurd its price to others.

 

Everyone likes to make money when they sell but pricing out the majority of collectors out of a substantial minority of coins is unhealthy for the hobby. Without the collector, there can be no hobby and therefore "investment" market. In my opinion, the US market is big and deep enough where it can accomodate what I would describe as the existing exorbitant prices for so many coins, but most others cannot. These people just do not get it.

 

When I resumed collecting in 1998, I chose not to collect US coins precisely because of their price to value proposition. For this series, I liked collecting them far more when they were cheaper and have actually sold most of my better coins because of the price run up.

 

Do you think that selling your better coins because of the price run up contributes to pricing out collectors? Perhaps we should some times go against the grain.

[Oldtrader3]

I do not think that selling out a personal collection for the average collector is deep or wide enough of a set that the market will not readily absorb it, unless you are Levere Redfield, of course. Most collectors do not have 3+ bags of 1926-S peace dollars to sell into a quiet market. I believe that gradeflation of market grading has hurt the overall coin market more than higher prices because of the confusion that it has caused.

 

I know that I am having a little brain twisting and eye popping to grasp the concept that due to gradeflation, my former (old holder) AU58 coins are now in new, similarly priced MS61/62 holders in many cases. This makes me wonder what my former and still MS62 coins are graded and priced now? Having to resubmit and regrade a hundred slabs because of marketing monkey-shines is annoying. We collectors do not usually benefit from the confusion that this causes because we own stock (coins) long term. Market grading recently has alleviated some of the more egregious over-graded issue AU coin pressure in the coin market though which is a positive note to some.

 

For moderns, we also have a major moderns dichotomy of MS69 SAE's having a separate collector price and a lower bullion price for the same identical slabbed coins, depending whether you are a buyer or seller.

 

These tactics do not encompass a normally considered orderly market flow where one can expect the rules of the market to have some lasting power and verity. Of course the stock market has rules about changing bid prices and daily limits on doing it in order to prevent exactly this sort of issue from occurring. Probably the FTC will notice or have this behavior brought to their attention eventually. It is manipulation and has cost collector's money.

[breakdown-migration]

My gameplan is to stop paying attention to CAC just as soon as I learn to grade better than John Albanese and Bill Shamhart.

 

Seriously, folks, if you think you cannot learn something by submitting coins and seeing which ones sticker and which ones do not, good luck to you.

 

Buy what you want? Absolutely. Learn to grade for yourself? We should all strive to improve every day in our grading skills.

 

None of these are reasons to ignore CAC and the role it plays in today's marketplace.

[copper toning]

I do not think that selling out a personal collection for the average collector is deep or wide enough of a set that the market will not readily absorb it, unless you are Levere Redfield, of course. Most collectors do not have 3+ bags of 1926-S peace dollars to sell into a quiet market.

 

I was just curious as the statement contradicted itself.

 

However I do believe in the long run 1000's of average collectors determine the final market far more than any single collector.

 

If investors drive the market too high then many will be waiting at the bottom to catch the fall out.

[copper toning]

My gameplan is to stop paying attention to CAC just as soon as I learn to grade better than John Albanese and Bill Shamhart.

 

Seriously, folks, if you think you cannot learn something by submitting coins and seeing which ones sticker and which ones do not, good luck to you.

 

Buy what you want? Absolutely. Learn to grade for yourself? We should all strive to improve every day in our grading skills.

 

None of these are reasons to ignore CAC and the role it plays in today's marketplace.

 

Fortunatley my collection and goals are modest enough I can both learn from others fees on top of fees and ignore if I choose.

 

Should CAC decide to certify rather than verify I may be interested. As posted earlier there job is much easier after the tpg has made an assesment. Also as they grow they will need more help which will then place them in the same situation as tpg's. You will not know who is giving the opinion.

 

Make no doubt about in the end they will grow and money matters.

[Oldtrader3]

Small collectors keep bids low, probably both buying and selling because at these levels because they are not able to play both sides of the equation economically. If you have not noticed, most series of collector coins are lower bid than they were in 2008. Investors and large venues have successfully beat this trend by differentiation of what they collect and by staying well over on the investor side of the equation.

 

Dealers have split the entire collector venue into small operators buying and selling collector coins at low bids and investors and large auction houses owning the high bid market and commanding higher multiples of bid prices for thier investment grade coins. Some do both at the same time like Heritage does.

 

Most of we small collectors do not normally deal in investment grade level coins. I have only owned a few condition census, classic coins in my life and most of those were in unpopular series because of high coin cost and insufficient volume to leverage any promotion of these coin series which in my venues drives slow cost changes. However, remember that sometimes these hot venues can turn cold pretty fast and loose a lot of money just as fast.

 

Money always matters, particularly in venues where cost changes are geometric and grade level changes are arithmetic. Also in collecting venues which are for whatever reason, hot markets.

[World Colonial]

 

Everyone likes to make money when they sell but pricing out the majority of collectors out of a substantial minority of coins is unhealthy for the hobby.

 

Are you saying that the prices on a "substantial minority" of coins that are CAC accepted should not be higher than they are for the vast majority of coins that will not CAC?

 

Those coins are already worth more, before the CAC sticker. It is still possible to cherry-pick PQ coins at average prices in auction venues, but the same coins can sell for substantially more when they are accurately described and offered directly to knowledgably numismatists.Collectors are becoming more and more sophisticated, and the market is FINALLY adapting to keep up. The overall effect of CAC is making it easier for more people to recognize the highest quality coins, bringing the cream to the top, so to speak. A coin that would have been overlooked at auction is now given extra attention because of a CAC sticker.

 

No, I was not saying that.

[World Colonial]

Do you think that selling your better coins because of the price run up contributes to pricing out collectors? Perhaps we should some times go against the grain.

 

It could have but I was not going to wait around and find out. Someone else can take the loss for paying inflated prices if they want to but it is not going to be me if I can help it.

 

Whether I will sell a particular coin just depends upon how much I like it, what I think of its future prospects and whether I think I can replace it later at a favorable price.

 

A few of the coins I sold, I might not be able to buy them back at all or if so, maybe only for more or a lot more later. I will just pass on these if I have to.

 

Others that I currently own that I like more such as my AU and MS NGC Peru Spanish colonial pillar minors, I have no inteniton of ever selling. It would not be worth it at what I believe are current prices, I could probably never find most of them again in equivalent quality and no one is likely to offer me enough to induce me to sell.

 

Most of the coins I sold, I expect to be able to both buy others like them back and to pay less for them.