Need some help on guesstimating grades for Indian Head $2.50 and $5.00 Gold

[Jakeblue]

I recently have been thinking about collecting the quarter eagle and half eagle gold coins. I have bought some Liberty gold in the past, but the incuse design of the Indian seems pretty difficult to nail down. I have looked at photograde, graded NGC/PCGS and some articles online.

 

Frankly, it appears that many were weakly struck on the lower headress feathers and the eagle's left shoulder. I have looked at many graded pictures of the same grade same TPG and sometimes the strike is stronger in those areas and sometimes it appears very weak. As an example, the 1908 in MS appears to have those characteristics.

 

What other areas should I be looking for that might help. Such as, does a cleaned gold piece present the same as silver with lines or bad dipping with marks/dirt around the devices (or in this case, embedded), other areas that will show the wear? Are rim nicks fairly common?

 

I understand that the best and safest way is to buy already graded. As I am looking I might find a raw coin that I am interested in and want to be prepared as much as I can be.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

[jom]

Oh...man...you're in trouble now! These are the hardest coins to grade, IMO. The half eagles are especially bad. I'd watch for:

 

1) What you think is weak strike on eagle's shoulder might be wear.

2) What looks like nice toning the TPG's now might call AT

3) Look for that "indent" on the rim...a striking anomaly

4) On the half eagles especially you'll almost never see luster in the field on the obverse...a good sign of a "gem" coin (as long as everything else holds up).

5) The half eagle is probably the worst made coin by the mint...after the more modern presses were used anyway.

6) I don't remember off hand what they are but the 11-D quarter eagles have some diagnostics you should know.

7) Good luck finding a nice 12-S or 09-O half eagle...they are all dull. If it isn't get your pocket book out or mortgage your house.

 

If I were you (I should have listened to this advice years ago) I'd run...fast...the other direction. Collect Morgan dollars or some other easy series.

 

jom

[PerryHall]

6) I don't remember off hand what they are but the 11-D quarter eagles have some diagnostics you should know.

 

The 1911-D is the only key date in this series and has been heavily counterfeited as have all the other dates in this series. As far as diagnostics, there are three: there is a wire rim on the obverse from about 10:00 to 3:00, there are small scallop marks on the reverse rim at 12:00 (the edge of the die hit the reeded collar and picked up some reeding marks on its edge), and a small vertical die polish scratch inside the recess to the left of the tips of the arrow heads on the reverse. Since the D mintmark is the only design element that is raised above the field (it was punched in the field of the finished die) and all other design elements are sunk below the surface, the D mintmark is not protected from wear by a raised rim and will quickly wear off but this coin can still be identified as a 1911-D by the vertical die polish line in the recess and the slabbing services will holder this coin even without the mintmark visible although they add "WEAK MINTMARK" to the label.

[James_OldeTowne]

Having looked at TONS of these (sometimes to my regret, as nothing makes you go more cross-eyed than cataloging Indian quarter-eagles), the first and most important thing to remember in grading sunken-relief gold is that the grading services are erratic themselves. So, don't be surprised at all if, you find it difficult to get a handle on estimating grades, and you frequently don't guess the same grade as a TPG. The honest to goodness truth that they won't (and can't) tell you is that TPG grading of these two series is likely the most difficult and inconsistent of all series, with the possible exception of early copper. And I say this with all due respect and admiration for our host, who actually do a good job!!

 

I recommend always starting with a grade range of MS-61/2, since that is where the majority fall in line. Actually, it's a minority that are circulated, and those that are tend to be at the upper AU-55 to 58 if they show any rub. The coins did not circulate all that much. Contrary to common belief, it's actually easier to distinguish sliders from true BU coins for these series, since you only have to look at one primary area on each side: the Indian's cheek bone, and the eagle's shoulder, with the top of the eagle's head being the next place to look for friction. That "friction" will usually show up as a change in golden color, as rub in those areas tends to show up as a darker shade of golden.

 

What you are going to find is that many certified low-end "UNCs" ARE sliders! You'll quickly learn that AU-58 through MS-62 are pretty much interchangeable, and one of the most astute things you can learn to do is to avoid the overgraded sliders. Fortunately, the value of these coins changes very little within that narrow band of grades, so you can't get hurt much if you make a mistake.

 

DO NOT use "marks" as the primary determinant of grade. These are a different animal from any other coin, and planchets were filled with small dings, marks and small depressions that could not be struck out by the dies, because the first point of contact was the sunken detail. For all other coins, the fields are the first point of contact, which is why field marks tend to get struck out on other series. You will ALWAYS find little ticks, nicks and hairlines on sunken-relief gold coins, except for the very highest grade pieces.

 

MS-63 is a different story. ALL issues in either sunken-relief series ALWAYS have a large price jump between MS-62 and MS-63. Always pass on a MS-63 that gives you the slightest inkling of being overgraded, since that represents such a big risk in spread.

 

One last thing: fortunately, coins in the series are much less frequently cleaned than in other series, I suppose because it's such a different animal. The coins never have cartwheel luster to begin with (or it is just slight), and no matter how much you clean one, you can't "improve" cartwheel luster that isn't there. So in most cases, you won't typically get whacked by accidentally buying cleaned examples. Just be prudent. Counterfeits are a whole 'nother story. I have witnessed sellers with literally dozens of these coins that did not know that all of them were fake. Counterfeits run rampant, and this where the TPGs are invaluable. Buy the coins in holders because they are GENUINE, not necessarily because they are graded properly.

 

Hope this helps, but just remember it's a statement of my opinion. There are definitely more expert graders out there than me. I'm just telling you what I've seen based on looking at literally a few thousand over the years. Some dealers have seen TENS of thousands, if not more.

[BillJones]

I understand that the best and safest way is to buy already graded. As I am looking I might find a raw coin that I am interested in and want to be prepared as much as I can be.

 

 

Unless you really know the series I'd stay away from raw $5 Indian gold coins. I've seen a number fakes that could only be spotted if you know the general relief of these coins. Also the $5 Indian series is a real bear to collect by date and mint, especially if you want true Mint State coins. Even the "common" dates are tough in true Mint State.

 

The Indian quarter eagles are much easier. I've seen some very nice graded pieces in the lower end of the Mint State grades at reasonable prices. Of course that was before gold bullion went through the roof, but these coins were selling for well over melt before that.

 

The only scarce coin, aside from high grade condition rarities in the Indian quarter eagle series is the 1911-D. I think that coin is a bit over priced relative to its rarity because they are always available in most any grade desired for a price. If you buy raw Indian quarter eagles, one place the counterfeiters often mess up is in the recessed area of the Indian’s neck. If there are lumps of metal in there the coin is a fake. Still I’d go with certified coins. It does not cost you that much more, and you can rest assured that you have bought a fake.

 

Here’s a set I put together back in the 1980s. It is an impressive little set once it's done.

 

 

And here is a really pretty 1908 quarter eagle I bought at the last Baltimore show. The top of the eagle's wing is weak on virtually all 1908 quarter eagles.

 

 

And here is a true Mint State $5 Indian. This is the toughest coin find in Mint State in the eight piece gold type set by far.

 

[supertooth]

Rarely do you see answers to a post that you totally agree with. But, in this case, jom and Perry Hall and James have this one absolutely correct.

 

I write, not to tell you anything but RUN----and RUN HARD away from these coins----unless and until you do two things: You have become an EXPERT in gold counterfeit detection and Two is that you have seen enough of them that you know how to grade them both in and out of a holder.

 

Until you have the above skills----STAY AWAY. But, if you do buy, buy only NGC and PCGS graded coins. Just my humble opinion. I might add that many, many years ago I learned---and learned a somewhat hard lesson. Fortunately, for me, time let me make money because the price of gold advanced so much. Bob [supertooth]

[BillJones]

I would not chase him away with a stick from these coins, but I would advise him to stick with PCGS and NGC graded coins. These days coins that amount to much that are sold raw or in "Brand X" holders are sold that way for a reason, and that reason is usually not to the benefit of the collector.

[James_OldeTowne]

ANACS and ICG coins are reliably genuine, but their grading is all over the place on these, definitely more erratic than even the top two. Tread with caution, but at least feel comfortable that coins in their holders are genuine.

 

I agree with Bill Jones - the 1911-D is priced too high to reflect it's true demand. It is legitimately a low-mintage coin, but plenty enough survived to handle even today's increased demand. Look for a coin with the strongest possible mintmark. I've seen fewer examples than I could count one hand that had a BOLD "D".

[PerryHall]

the 1911-D is priced too high to reflect it's true demand.

 

The coin marketplace disagrees with you. This is the key date in the only U.S. gold coin series that can be reasonably completed by the average middle class coin collector.

[BillJones]

Here is my 1911-D. It didn't grade because of a possible spot that was lifted to the right of the eagle's tail feathers. I saw that surface disturbance at the time when I bought the piece circa 1985 and figured it didn't matter because it is an AU coin. I've seen examples in Mint State holders that were not nearly as nice as this, which had far more serious problems. They still sold for over $6,000 despite the fact that they were ugly.

 

 

To me the 1911-D is too common to sell for that price in what really amounts to AU condition. But it is the key date in the only affordable "old gold" series that most of us can figure upon completing.

[Jakeblue]

I just wanted to say thanks for all the replies. I have learned more from reading them than I found anywhere else.

 

While not nearly as knowledgeable as others, I have collected some nice differing series over the years and have had very good luck with picking both graded and raw that have I sent in for grading.

 

As stated, though, this series is a whole different animal. I have my eye on some raw coins right now that I am considering "testing" the waters, so to speak. I am also looking at a few graded ones that appear to fit what I am looking for.

 

I will post the results when I buy and when the grades come in.