PVC: do you use it? Why/why not?

[1jester]

I touched upon this subject in a nearby thread, and I'd like your opinion on the matter. Incidentally, there was a poll conducted on the CU forums a week or so ago, and nearly half of all people voted that PVC is fine to hold coins in. I was shocked.

 

PVC is a poison to coins. How can people in good conscience continue to use it? Are we not merely temporary custodians of coins? Is it our right to assist in their destruction? Shouldn't we do as much as possible to try to keep them in as good condition as possible? Failing that, shouldn't we at least avoid all exposure to known caustic agents such as PVC?

 

PVC has been the cause of the absolute destruction of so many coins it's appalling. I've conserved hundreds upon hundreds--perhaps thousands of coins which had been exposed to the poison. Many of the coins were permanently damaged. About 15 years ago, I suffered a mind-numbing loss of my collection, due to the ravages of PVC; If those coins hadn't been turned to crater-ridden hunks of metal, I would be sitting on a collection worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead, PVC destroyed the coins.

 

Please allow my loss to be your gain. And the gain of numismatics in general. Please don't try to save a few pennies here and there by using PVC products. Shun them and save your coins. There's no excuse.

 

[Bruceswar]

I will never understand why dealers to this day still use those flips on coins... It just makes me think how much they really know when I see that.

[LanLord]

Whenever I buy a coin and a dealer pulls out a flip, I look closely at it to see what it is that he/she is placing the coin in.

 

When that flip is PVC, and that does happen way to often for my comfort, I get this really uncomfortable feeling. It's like having an itch that I can't reach. The only thing that can help is getting home and pulling the darn thing out of that flip.

 

I agree with the prior post that PVC is poison, even though I know a few minutes of exposure won't cause any damage, it's still an uncomfortable feeling for me.

[TomB]

Many dealers use PVC flips because they are cheaper than non-PVC flips and typically somewhat less brittle. The thinking for many folks is that they are trying to flip the coin quickly and, as such, they don't have to think of the long term ramifications of PVC exposure.

[Leothelion]

Some uses of PVC is not all that bad! But on the other hand, PVC can affect your sex life!

How ironic is that? The very thing that may add some zip to your love life, may very well distroy it!

 

Leo

[BillJones]

First, I don’t care for flips period, especially for long term storage. Still you have to use them now and then.

 

The safety flips are brittle and they break up much more easily than the PVC type. One dealer who buys from me who is hard on flips because of the way he twists them to look at the coins once complained to me because of how my safety flips broke up in his hands. It takes all kinds, and the safety type are not universally admired.

 

BTW I think that the flips the grading services use for submissions are body bags contain PVC.

 

[jom]

BTW I think that the flips the grading services use for submissions are body bags contain PVC.

 

You know, I find that rather ironic.

 

jom

[JadeRareCoin]

1jester, thank you for broaching this subject. It's a subject that I am somewhat obsessed with. Every time I visit a coin shop, every time I attend a coin show and every time that I participate in an auction, I find myself asking "Why? Why use PVC flips when the same coin could be placed into an inert flip?"

 

I have lambasted other dealers for using PVC flips. The usual response is "uh, oh, uh, well, this is just temporary storage". The bottom line is that there is NO EXCUSE at all for using PVC flips.......EVER! Common sense tells me that if you touch a coin to a PVC flip.....even for just a day or two.....it will pick-up some oil residue, however minute the residue will be. Auction companies put a disclaimer on their flip inserts that warn "temporary holder only". Again, if the flip has oil in it, it will get on your coin. The type of metal of the coin, the ambient temperature, humidity, etc., all determine how much PVC will leach onto the coin. Obviously the longer the coin is in a flip, the more damage.

 

Why do people use PVC flips? Some have told me "hey, these are inexpensive". Others have given me the excuse that "the hard flips scratch coins". Hogwash! Sliding coins back and forth on any surface will cause scratches.

 

The main reason that people still use PVC flips is simply because companies still make and sell them.

 

The reality is that the same dealers (and collectors) who continue to use PVC flips just don't know how to handle coins at all. They are not true numismatists, but rather commodities dealers. Do you want an example? How about the dealers who throw coins in flips back and forth to each other. You know, Bob asks Chuck if he can see that 1796 Cap Cent in EF-40 and there it goes.....KA_THUNK! right on the case one table down. I will say, "what in the he11 are your doing?!?!". The response is "hey, it's in a flip....it ain't hurt".

 

A few months ago at a major show, I saw one dealer walk a California $50 Octagonal up to another dealer. From what I gathered from the conversation, the coin belonged to another dealer and the second dealer was asking the third dealer for his opinion. James and I were sitting at the adjacent table looking to fill some want lists. I was eavesdropping because it was a cool coin. The second dealer took the coin out of the flip and then.......(you better sit down for this one).....he dropped it. KA_DING..DING...DING....as it bounced on the floor. Neither guy said a word, but he put it back in the flip and returned it to the other dealer. Do you think he told the owner what had happened??? Sorry for the tangent.

 

Don't even get me started on how coins are mistreated when mailed back and forth like 3rd class junk mail.

 

As for our company, we only use Saflip brand inert holders if we even use flips. We store our main inventory in Eagle brand 2x2 holders, because they are completely inert, the coin is held stationary and the holders are thick, so the coins will not touch when placed into a 2x2 storage box.

 

Are we not merely temporary custodians of coins? Is it our right to assist in their destruction? Shouldn't we do as much as possible to try to keep them in as good condition as possible?

 

EXACTLY. Thanks for caring and trying to get others to care.

 

 

[BillJones]

The problem with the safty flips breaking up in a commercial setting is quite real. I use them sometimes, and if the coin does not sell in a couple of months I find that I have to replace them because they broken up from repeated handling.

[1jester]

Thanks for the wonderful post, Dennis. Until PVC is completely eliminated from the realm of numismatics, I don't think it can be stressed enough that PVC is evil and to be completely avoided and shunned. For what it's worth, I don't think people that use it are aware of how they are propogating the destruction of coins. There's still no excuse.

 

It's like hiring a convicted child molestor to baby sit your young daughter. There's just no excuse.

[JadeRareCoin]

Bill,

 

You are correct that the inert holders do tend to crack and break. It doesn't have to be that way, but some guys (usually the fast-paced vest pocket dealers) are just plain rough on flips. These guys are looking for coins that they can get upgraded or slabbed, so they are not really concerned about properly handling YOUR coin. Instead, they are in a hurry to get to the next table before the other guy beats him to a good deal. These guys don't care about the historical significance of old coins. They are just making money.....playing the game.

 

To them, "custodian of coins" would mean someone who cleans coins.

 

Again, you are correct and I do reholder coins in a nice fresh Saflip every once in awhile. When I ship coins via mail, I cut a Saflip to separate the 2 halves. I place a coin in the flip and seal it with a heat sealer. This minimizes any slipping and sliding of the coin during shipment and keeps the coin in an inert environment. Plus I can turn 100 Saflips into 200 legitimate coin holders.

 

I also agree with you that flips of any type are not the best way to store coins.

[spy88]

 

Can anyone tell me if what you see might be/are PVC flips that I got from my local dealer?? I do not think they are and I don't think my dealer would sell such an item, but I do not know for sure. I plan on calling him Friday to ask but wanted any opinions out there first.

 

Thanks!

David

[Leothelion]

Here's another earlier discussion on PVC flips.

 

Leo

[Bruceswar]

Spy88 I don't think that those are... I had a coin sit in one of those type for over a year then it graded MS 66 ... and no telling how long it had been in there before I bought it