Can you identify this coin?

[MikeKing]

And why?

 

Michael's posts about the Max Mehl's auction prices inspired me to post a photo of this coin (reverse only) because it sold for $1.90, I believe, at a coin auction in 190(?).

 

 

[Numbers-migration]

Well it is a Draped Bust Half Cent 1800-1808, with the 2nd reverse... can't tell a date.

[michael]

1811

[Hoot]

Okay michael, you owe an explanation!

 

Hoot

[braddick]

1811

Michael, is it the placement of the berries?

[MikeKing]

 

Michael...don't tell.

 

 

Hint: What is it about the berries that could lead you to the answer?

 

[michael]

i am sorry i cant tell as mikeking asked me not too

 

 

but i will say i think i can trace this coin back to 1880 at least i tyink? virgal brand had it

 

michael

 

it is a really interesting and really monster raRE COIN AND TOTALLY UNDERAPPRECAITED AND NOT UNDERSTOOD OR KNOWN BY MANY

 

i will leave the rest of the story to mike king but since i already told you the date i think you mighjt be able to identify it now

 

 

michael

[MikeKing]

but i will say i think i can trace this coin back to 1880 at least i tyink? virgal brand had it

 

the first I know of documented appearance is in NYC Jan 18th 1883 at John Haseltine's 64th sale. I don't have the price list so don't know what it went for.

 

Virgil Brand won it at Elder's first auction in Sept 30 1905 for $1.90.

 

The die for this strike was referred to as 1804 (sic) when the George Rice collection was auctioned by the St. Louis Stamp & Coin company in 1906.

 

 

[MikeKing]

Well it is a Draped Bust Half Cent 1800-1808, with the 2nd reverse... can't tell a date.

 

I find it hard to distinguish offhand, the wreaths from the 'cent types' of 1794 to those of 1808 but that's due to my unlearnedness. But you're close.

 

 

but the berries are the dead giveaway:

 

Michael, is it the placement of the berries?

 

for this die is the ONLY one in the entire series with a berry to the right of the stem and the lower outside leaf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[davefperry]

According to Breen's it's an 1802 draped bust half cent with the new reverse.

[Numbers-migration]

Hmm... I was close...

 

I just checked the Red Book and it has "1811 Rev. of 1802. Unofficial restrike. (Extremely Rare.)"

[EVillageProwler]

Great post, Mike King!

 

EVP

 

[MikeKing]

According to Breen's it's an 1802 draped bust half cent with the new reverse.

 

You're almost right, and numbers got it right below...but why?

 

What you see is the 1802 half cent reverse B described by Cohen who also describes both an early and rusted die state. The photo above is obviously from the rusted state.

 

However, Breen further breaks down the die states into I-XII, from perfect to rusted with a crack through the top of RICA (which is barely visible in this photo) and rim break over ICA to the final zero (which you can see clearly in the picture).

 

But by that point, you could harldy see the H in HALF and hardly see the CE in CENTS because of the corrosion.

 

Additionally, all 1802's were struck on spoiled cent planchets.

 

So how do you account for the reverse B with a die crack and rim breaks but a clearly visible 'HALF CENT' inscribed and on a surface that is bright orange-copper? A surface, albeit rough from die rust, that is otherwise clean and mirrored.

 

So Numbers was right when he called it the 1811 reverse of 1802.

 

For only reworking that die could have brought it back to the condition you see above, and if you saw the obverse, it wouldn't say 1802, rather, it would say 1811 and be a classic head.

 

A muleing of the dies of two scarce-rare coins, the 1811 Classic Head Half Cent (C2) obverse, and the 1802 Draped Bust reverse B.

 

Michael knows how exciting the history is behind this coin.

 

 

 

[TomB]

I came to this thread late, but it is quite fascinating! Do you currently own the coin?

[davefperry]

It's a fine looking coin. Thanks for the history and details of how it came to be.

[Beijim]

"No, those are Sacagewa dollars. You can trade them in at the bank for real dollars."---Marge Simpson

"No, those are Sacagewa dollars. You can get them at the bank."---davefperry

 

Who is "Sacagewa?"

 

[davefperry]

Sacagewa is the lady on the coin with her name misspelled. Thanks for catching that.

[MikeKing]

It is called the Mickley restrike but WHO was actually responsible for the minting of this coin?

 

Joseph Mickley was born in 1799, moved to Philadelphia in 1818.

The story goes that his coin collecting started with the desire to find a penny dated at his birth year.

He went on to become one of the preeminant coin collectors of his time.

He is one of the earliest known American numismatists.

 

The dies for the 1811 obverse and 1802 reverse were reportedly PURCHASED by the US MINT at his estate auction in 1878, the year of his death.

 

 

[michael]

great information

 

mickley was a thorn in the side of the mint with all the original coin dies he had and after his death THE MINT REACQUIRED ALL OF THE DIES HE HAD IN HIS ESTATE

 

HE PURCHASED these coinage dies from a worker in the scrap steel business as old iron! who had gotten the dies from the US mint in philly after a fire at the mint in 1816 and subsaquinte excavations revealed a small underground vault

 

(((((i would guesstimate the excavations took place in the middle 1820's giving the dies time to corrode for 10 or so years in the ground ))))

 

probably around 25 dies where found obverse and reverse dies of various usa coinages most all where damaged and in poor condition they stay with mickley for over 50 years till his death in feb 15 1878 just a few days before his 79 th birthday

 

after some of his coins where stolen in the late 1860's mickley lost interest somewhat in coins and sold the balance of his collection at auction in ny city around 1869?

 

much later in his life he got interested in archaeology

and travelled very much acquired a superb collection of important historical and archaeology books and was a contributer to some really important archaeological studies and along the way became an excellent linguist

 

again he died on feb 15 1878 nine days before his 79 th birthday

 

michael

 

 

[MikeKing]

Thank you Michael You really appreciate and KNOW coins

yes, Joseph Mickely

a very interesting guy

I wonder what his thinking was...what prompted him to make his own coins..where did he get the press!!!!???!!!!!! and where was it all done? and WHO did it with him or for him ????

 

[michael]

well you pose some interesting questions mike

 

and I really do not know as much as you give me credit for

but i appreciate the kind words

 

i would need to do some research to get many documents to prove my theory

 

but...............

 

 

myself i firmly believe that montroville dickerson that famous infamous numismatist, archaeologist, grave robber and author/publisher of the american numismatic manual of 1859,1860 and 1861 who lived most of his life in philadelphia around the middle to latter part of the 19 century and also restruck some coins mules fantasies

 

with old mint dies and was a constant visitor to the usa mint in philly looking for federal coinage ,piece de caprices, novodels and the likes i am sure made friends with mickley and i have no doubts that dickerson was instrumental in striking, assisting etc mickley with his restruck pieces

 

yes yes yes

 

 

i wish i had kept all the personal papers

letters

documents

newspaper accounts

monographs of first second and third hand accounts of such activities

etc etc.

and the copy of the american numismatic manual i had many many years ago as a younger man

 

well such is life in the fast lane of american numismatics of the middle to late 19 century in philadelphia pennsylvania!

 

 

michael

 

 

[MikeKing]

i wish i had kept all the personal papers

letters

documents

newspaper accounts

 

i wish you did too. then i would offer to buy them from you!

 

 

[MikeKing]

a few people had pmd me asking for a picture of the obverse which is in the cabinet of an east coast collector:

 

 

 

[Bruceswar]

that is one nice coin all around.. great color....

[MikeKing]

in 1905 this coin was auctioned by Thomas Elder (his first auction) and puchased by Virgil Brand for $1.90. Virgil Brand spent over $17,000.00 on coins that year. The ANA had 418 members, William Forrester Dunham purchased the 1804 silver dollar (for $1,100.00) and Max Mehl, I believe, was in business for one year.