Grade this 1889-cc morgan

[estatecoinz]

Hi All,

I am new to the forums and have only been collecting for about five years. I saw this coin at a local shop and wanted to get your opinions of the grade before I buy. Most of my coins I inherited and they do not have toning so Im not sure if this is AT or NT. Any help would be appreciated. Im not sure how to post pictures on here so I can email them if you like or someone can tell me how to do it and Ill post the pictures. Thanks!

 

[MarkW]

It looks like someone took a $5000-$8000 mid-AU Morgan and ruined it w/AT.

I could be wrong. I'm sure we'll learn something from the toner boys when they chime in.

Mark

[physics-fan3.14]

That is definitely artificially toned, in an unattractive manner. I would concur with the mid- to low- AU grade range - which still puts this coin at quite a bit of money. I would not buy this coin, and I would not buy this date raw because of the chance that it might be fake (I'm not a Morgan guy, so I can't tell you - but it looks genuine to me).

[Mark T]

This is a AT coin . Considering that the coin is rather valuable in grades Au 50 and above I would also question its authenticity .

[estatecoinz]

I asked him if he would refund my money if it is fake and he said absolutely. He has been in business here for a long time so I am pretty comfortable that it is authentic but the toning scares me. Its not florecent in hand like some Ive seen and looks dark yellow with dark brown around the edges when you look at it head on. the colors are only visible when it is tilted or under good lighting.

 

What are some of the signs to look for that tip off an AT coin compared to NT coins?

 

BTW, thank you all very much for the responses so far!

[L1ncolnF4n]

I don't think that would slab out. I will only detail it at AU-50 tops

[TomB]

There may be white balance issues with the color, but the coin appears to be artificially toned.

[$ilverHawk]

Hard to believe that someone would AT a $4000.00 coin. I don't see anything that indicates that this coin is counterfeit. Amazing clean reverse. At face value AU53-55. Still this coin appears to be AT'd.

 

I suggest you take this coin to a dealer that is certified in counterfeit detection. Quite a puzzle.

 

Carl

[estatecoinz]

The pictures posted were taken with my blackberry phone at the coin shop. I will take my canon camera tomorrow to see if I can get some better pictures that represent more the "the coin in hand".

 

Any suggestions for good pics? let me know and I will do my best.

 

I have not purchased the coin yet so I doubt he would let me take it to another dealer for review. After all the AT feedback I asked him if/why he never sent it in for grading. He stated that he does not send coins in ever for his coins. He has submitted for csutomer before but that he doesn't see the point,

 

Kinda sent up red flags with me but he had a good explanation...He said he had been doing this for so long and is a long time member of the ANA among other organizations. He said while he may purchase coins in holders for resell or even to keep, he never submits coins because he doesn't see any reason to pay for confirmation of what he already knows. He also stated that TPG's have a habit of undergrading or bagging coins that are perfectly fine because they make there money off of the submissions, so if they graded it properly the first time, they would never see the coin again for regrade, crossover etc. to make more money.

 

After doing more research online, I found some pics of Morgans with similar color toning on the heritagecoins auction archives. The reverse has very similar toning as this reverse of this coin picture here: http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=372&Lot_No=9840

The obverse has similar toning as the coin pictured here: http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=414&Lot_No=2992

 

 

When I go back tomorrow I will see if he has others that are similarly toned as I have read that this could be a tip off if he is ATing coins.

 

I still have not been able to find any info on how to spot, beyond a reasonable doubt, an AT coin. It seems to be what ever is in the eye of the beholder of what is "market acceptable" or "just doesn't look right" which seems extremely subjective, much more so than grading in general.

 

It would be interesting to hear the theories on what defining details make a coin AT vs NT. Actual detail as to how to spot it beyond a reasonable doubt, besides someone saying it just doesn't look right or is not market acceptable. Its very frustrating because the coin looks beautiful, but I don't want to buy an altered coin, but there doesn't seem to be any info that i can find that says the coin is AT because of something specific......sorry about writing a book for a post....

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Determining AT vs. NT is one of the hardest things to do for a new collector - it really does take quite a bit of knowledge and experience. I will tell you a few things I notice about that coin which tip me off.

 

First, the reverse (the easier side to explain). That shade of electric blue is highly uncommon. That shade of electric blue, all by itself, is even more uncommon. That shade of electric blue, all by itself, clinging to the devices and in the crevices like that, is a sure sign its AT. Real toning is caused by thin film interference on the surface of the coin, and you will get a rainbow effect - colors don't usually just appear and then abruptly stop, they fade out (there are exceptions to this, as in every rule, but those are caused by certain cases, and have a certain look).

 

The obverse is a bit more complicated, but to someone with experience in toning (I am a collector of toned coins), it screams AT. After looking at many coins, you get a feel for which shades of colors form naturally, which form together, how they behave on the coin, and how they transition. For example, on your coin, the shades of red, blue, and amber just don't look natural. They are dull, and don't look like they belong togethre. Remember what I mentioned above about having a natural rainbow transition? Blue does not fade to red, which does not fade to amber - the "color progression", as we call it, is all wrong. Besides which, the transition isn't so much of a fade as it is an abrupt transition.

 

The whole coin also has a hazy look. When you get back to the shop, try smelling the coin (and don't be afraid when the dealer gives you a funny look). Sometimes AT coins will have a chemical smell, especially when freshly done. I'm guessing this one was done a while ago, because the colors seem to be fading.

 

I hope all this helps. If you will allow me - another piece of advice for a beginner. I'm sure you are excited about this new hobby, and I'm sure you have money burning a hole in your pocket. Slow Down! Buy a couple of books, read, and learn. Don't buy too many coins (especially not $5000 ones!!!) until you have a better idea of what you are doing. Your first several purchases should be certified coins (because believe me, they know what they are doing a whole lot more than you do). This will be much safer. There is a reason this dealer did not have this coin certified - because he knew it wouldn't make it.

 

Good luck with your new hobby, and I hope you take our advice!

[cpm9ball]

I agree with everyone that the coin is AT, and you have to question why someone would risk damaging such an expensive coin like that. I think the answer might be that the coin is a counterfeit, and someone tried to AT the coin to distract attention from the fact that it is a fake. I'm not 100% sure, but the placement of the mintmark doesn't look right. Other examples show a mintmark placed to the right, but centered a little more, vertically. On this one, the mintmark is set high to the right.

 

I'd like to post this thread on the VAMWorld site, and ask for some opinions there. Perhaps someone can give us a better idea, and possibly save you from making a big mistake.

 

Chris

[sfchemist-migration]

As a long time amateur numismatist, the advice from physics-fan is spot on and doesn't get any better.

[cpm9ball]

The author of this article, John Roberts, is a member of VAMWorld, and he was kind enough to give me the link. John believes that this 89-CC is a VAM-3. Thank you, John, for your assistance.

 

Chris

 

http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=18

[cpm9ball]

John Roberts wrote an article for ANACS on the 89-CC die pairs, and he believes that this one is a VAM-3. I tried to link the article, but couldn't. Thanks, John, for your assistance.

 

Chris

[Mark T]

If you are going to purchase a rare coin like this why take the chance on a raw one, especially one that does not look right ?? Lets say it is authentic, chances are very high that it has been submitted to a TPG and rejected as original.

Physics-fan’s post was spot on .

 

[fishfinder]

 

Physics-fans post was spot on .

 

(thumbs u

[estatecoinz]

I went back to the store this afternoon armed with all of your feedback, especially physics-fan, thank you very much! The dealer does not have many toned coins in his shop and admitted he is not as framiliar with AT as he should be. He agreed with the diagnosis provided by physics-fan. He said if it had been AT'd it was probably long ago. He did say if I really wanted the coin I could pay for the grading and he would send it in. If it came back bagged he would split the grading fee with me, but if it comes back slabbed original in a higher grade than what he is asking for, I would need to purchase it at retail minus the full grading fee.

 

I told him he should just send it in and then mark it up himself if he thought it might still actually slab, much less, grade higher (he grades AU53).... I think I will take all of the advice given and just look for an affordable, already slabbed one.

 

Any suggestions for the books I should own to educate myself with??

 

Again, Thank you all very much for your posts and info!

[prudden]

I went back to the store this afternoon armed with all of your feedback, especially physics-fan, thank you very much! The dealer does not have many toned coins in his shop and admitted he is not as framiliar with AT as he should be. He agreed with the diagnosis provided by physics-fan. He said if it had been AT'd it was probably long ago. He did say if I really wanted the coin I could pay for the grading and he would send it in. If it came back bagged he would split the grading fee with me, but if it comes back slabbed original in a higher grade than what he is asking for, I would need to purchase it at retail minus the full grading fee.

 

I told him he should just send it in and then mark it up himself if he thought it might still actually slab, much less, grade higher (he grades AU53).... I think I will take all of the advice given and just look for an affordable, already slabbed one.

 

Any suggestions for the books I should own to educate myself with??

 

Again, Thank you all very much for your posts and info!

 

Good call. Something I didn't see mentioned in this thread is the Two top grading companies are being gun shy of toned coins recently.Almost anything out of the ordinary is getting rejected. Good luck,again.

[sfchemist-migration]

"Any suggestions for the books I should own to educate myself with??"

 

You may want to consider joining the American Numismatic Association (ANA) and review their section for New Collectors. There are many numismatic areas that might be of interest to you and books written by Q. David Bowers will be an excellent and valuable source of information---he is a prolific author and a well known respected leader in Numismatics.

Good Luck,

Wayne

 

[BillJones]

There is no question that the toning is artificial even with the white balance problems in the photo. The “look” is classic AT.

 

I would not touch that coin raw. If you do consider buying it, have it sent to NGC or PCGS. Those services will not give it a grade, but they will pass judgment on it as to whether it is genuine. I think that it is probably genuine, but I don’t want to say for sure from this photograph.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Wow, someone just really screwed up what must have been a fantastic coin! That artificial color looks horrible. As Bill Jones wisely advised: don't even think of buying this horror.

[CHABSENTIA]

Wow, someone just really screwed up what must have been a fantastic coin! That artificial color looks horrible. As Bill Jones wisely advised: don't even think of buying this horror.

 

I think the coin is genuine,however, it looks terrible. I also think that it is AT. It could be that the coin was cleaned and the AT was to distract from it. It could also be because some body thought they could get more money for a toned coin etc.Sending it in and splitting the grading fees is a good deal. I would be very suprised it it didnt come back with "details" but slabbed.

 

Then it becomes a matter of who will spend money and how much for an 1889 CC VAM 3 with a details grade. I know people buy them as I see them sell all the time on Teletrade etc at a greatly reduced price.

[jgrinz]

Wow, someone just really screwed up what must have been a fantastic coin! That artificial color looks horrible. As Bill Jones wisely advised: don't even think of buying this horror.

 

I wasn't even going to post .. but James sums up my acid REFLUX pretty well