Counterfeit GSA Slabs?

[gbsten]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

[WoodenJefferson]

I'd be willing to bet the plastic injection mold dies are still around for those GSA holders, everything for that program was out sourced. I'm sure there was a clause in the contract to destroy the dies after production, but follow-up on implementations as such often fell through the cracks.

 

I would not put anything past the counterfeiters, it's all open season.

[PerryHall]

Not likely. Why bother counterfeiting GSA slabs when there is more profit in counterfeiting NGC and PCGS slabs?

[MarkW]

The GSA slabs had nothing in the way of security (no holograms, poorly sealed) and would be quite easy to counterfeit. Contrary to PerryHall's reply, counterfeiting these slabs would be well worth the bother and could be far more profitable than counterfeiting NGC or PCGS slabs. In some cases (e.g. 1890cc & 1891cc) the value increases 5 or more times for a GSA Morgan over its non-GSA counterpart. Take a look at the census #'s and Numismedia values on some of these dates.

 

[CHABSENTIA]

The GSA slabs had nothing in the way of security (no holograms, poorly sealed) and would be quite easy to counterfeit. Contrary to PerryHall's reply, counterfeiting these slabs would be well worth the bother and could be far more profitable than counterfeiting NGC or PCGS slabs. In some cases (e.g. 1890cc & 1891cc) the value increases 5 or more times for a GSA Morgan over its non-GSA counterpart. Take a look at the census #'s and Numismedia values on some of these dates.

 

 

It would only be profitable on some dates is correct. There is another problem with this scenario. The Morgan Dollar would have to be "uncirculated" to be in this holder. There are also some dates that are extremely rare in even "mint" state let alone an uncirculated state and to see these dates appear in a GSA holder would be highly suspect especially if a great number of them started to appear.

[TomB]

You don't need to put an MS 1890-CC into a counterfeit GSA holder. Rather, you can put a real, MS 1890 with an added mintmark into a counterfeit or salvaged GSA holder. Alternatively, just put a counterfeit coin into a counterfeit or salvaged GSA holder.

[World Colonial]

Paying 5 times for a GSA over one without one? That makes no sense at all.

[cpm9ball]

I have 6 - CC Morgans in GSA slabs. Two of them are graded by NGC. Will NGC reholder them in their slab with the GSA provenance noted on the insert?

 

Chris

[gbsten]

I see lots of options:

 

Put fake coins into real GSA slabs and sell/submit real coin.

 

Put cleaned coins into real GSA slabs.

 

Put fake coins into fake slabs.

 

Place low-grade real coins in fake slabs.

 

 

As stated earlier, there really are no "security features" built into these GSA slabs and I think they would be easy to replicate, and could be difficult to detect. I've seen people who have never sold coins sell 4 or 5 key date GSA's in the last month. I have also seen many where the box and COA just doesn't look right. Many seem to be offered in a two-piece box ( no hinge). I would imagine the box would be harder to duplicate, maybe that's why there seems to be a spike in demand and prices for empty GSA boxes?

[cpm9ball]

I have also seen many where the box and COA just doesn't look right. Many seem to be offered in a two-piece box ( no hinge). I would imagine the box would be harder to duplicate, maybe that's why there seems to be a spike in demand and prices for empty GSA boxes?

 

The "hinge" on the box is just a piece of paper. I have a couple that have given out from continued opening even though they were attached when I got them. Now, they are in two pieces. I don't even keep the slabs in the boxes any more. They're in Eagle pages.

 

Chris

[truthteller]

Fake chinese stuff is showing up everywhere, not just ebay, but local coin shops as well. I know collectors who paid severe premiums for GSA hard and soft pack coins. The soft packs are scarce, but VERY EASILY duplicated and, in some instances, quite rare. I would surmise from all the fake packaging now, that collectors would be quite hesistant to pay strong premiums unless he/she is well schooled on what to look for.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[CHABSENTIA]

What you say is true. You can buy the certifcates by themselves on E Bay without the coin. This would be possible and somebody that is inexperienced mighy fall for it. Many of these coins that you speak are Morgans that are expensive on the higher end because they are rare in higher grades. It would be much easier to use the "soft pack" for these puposes. The GSA holder has "uncirculated" on it and it is my understanding that a Morgan in a GSA holder that does not have " uncirculated on it " means that it has "toning". If there was a deluge of 1893 CC Morgans on Ebay and other Auction sites in "uncirculated " GSA holders or any other "key" date in GSA uncirculated holders then I would think that most people would be highly suspicious.

[PerryHall]

What you say is true. You can buy the certifcates by themselves on E Bay without the coin.

 

How hard would it be to counterfeit the COA's? Not very hard, I would imagine.

[gbsten]

What you say is true. You can buy the certifcates by themselves on E Bay without the coin.

 

How hard would it be to counterfeit the COA's? Not very hard, I would imagine.

 

I'm sure it's being done now. All you would need is a color printer/scanner and the proper paper stock. I've seen a lot that look awfully new. Every coin came with an original card, sure I can see some being lost or destroyed, but there seems to be a lot of demand for COA's. Where are all these slabs that need cards coming from?

[MarkW]

Following is a list ,by date, of the quantities auctioned by the GSA and the total mintage of that year. This explains the rarity and hence the premiums paid for some of these dates. Note that a "deluge" of 1893cc Morgans in GSA holders would be tough to pull off. Also, the people hired to sort these coins were not ver astute numismatically and merely pulled coins with tarnish (we like the term "toning") and moved them to a different category. The "white" coins went into holders marked "uncirculated". Those that had color or excessive bag marks went into holders without the word "uncirculated". Don't put too much emphasis on that word as some of the highest graded and most beautifully toned GSA Carson City Morgans are in cases without the word "uncirculated". The example attached is from CT's CC's #1 set of CC Morgans in GSA holders and is a Top Pop.

 

-------------- GSA-----------Mintage

 

1878 CC----60,993------2,212,000

1879 CC------4,123--------756,000

1880 CC---131,529--------591,000

1881 CC---147,485--------296,000

1882 CC---605,029-----1,133,000

1883 CC---755,518-----1,204,000

1884 CC---962,638-----1,136,000

1885 CC---148,285--------228,000

1889 CC-------------1--------350,000

1890 CC-------3,949-----2,309,041

1891 CC-------5,687-----1,618,000

1892 CC-------------1-----1,352,000

1893 CC-------------1--------677,000

 

Above figures are from Van Allen/Mallis Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars

 

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[CHABSENTIA]

What you say is true. You can buy the certifcates by themselves on E Bay without the coin.

 

How hard would it be to counterfeit the COA's? Not very hard, I would imagine.

 

I'm sure it's being done now. All you would need is a color printer/scanner and the proper paper stock. I've seen a lot that look awfully new. Every coin came with an original card, sure I can see some being lost or destroyed, but there seems to be a lot of demand for COA's. Where are all these slabs that need cards coming from?

 

Mark W has proven my oint in a later post. There was only one GSA issued for the years 1889 CC , 1892CC and the 1893 CC. If you started to see a number of them in GSA Holders then it would be highly suspect.. Apparently I was also correct on the ones that were toned as not having the "uncirculated" designation. I was not implyng that the " toned" Morgans were less valuable etc. Just noting why one might not be in an "uncirculated" GSA Holder.

[CHABSENTIA]

Wow ! An MS67. Thanks for the info as I was curious as to waht percentage of the actual mintage were GSA Dollars. Ihave the 1880CC GSA MS63PL, 1882CC GSA MS64PL, 1883 CC GSA MS64PL and the 1884 CC GSA in MS63. None as grand as the MS67 .

[Conder101]

Wow ! An MS67.

And in a GSA holder from the "Mixed CC" category because it was judged to not be Uncirculated (because of that crescent toning from 12 to 3 o'clock). It was sold in the GSA sale for $15.

 

Where are all these slabs that need cards coming from?

For many years dealers would throw away the boxes and cards as just so much space wasting packaging. But in recent years many collectors have been wanting the boxes and cards that came with them as well. That demand is being satisfied by people who cracked out their GSA coins ut held onto the boxes and paper. now that the coins are slabbed and the boxes and paper really don't go with them any more the owner can still make a few bucks by selling them on eBay

 

Could the COA's be counterfeited? Sure as mentioned it wouldn't be hard to do. Most COA, not just the GSA ones, are not really worth the paper they are printed on for that reason. Easy to fake and most people don't bother to examine them anyway. All they care is that there is a COA there.

[PerryHall]

Even if a COA was real, who is to say what coin it originally came with? A real COA could easily be paired with a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit slab.

[CHABSENTIA]

Wow ! An MS67.

And in a GSA holder from the "Mixed CC" category because it was judged to not be Uncirculated (because of that crescent toning from 12 to 3 o'clock). It was sold in the GSA sale for $15.

 

Where are all these slabs that need cards coming from?

For many years dealers would throw away the boxes and cards as just so much space wasting packaging. But in recent years many collectors have been wanting the boxes and cards that came with them as well. That demand is being satisfied by people who cracked out their GSA coins ut held onto the boxes and paper. now that the coins are slabbed and the boxes and paper really don't go with them any more the owner can still make a few bucks by selling them on eBay

 

Could the COA's be counterfeited? Sure as mentioned it wouldn't be hard to do. Most COA, not just the GSA ones, are not really worth the paper they are printed on for that reason. Easy to fake and most people don't bother to examine them anyway. All they care is that there is a COA there.

 

What everybody has stated is true ,however, there is no denying that if the three GSA coins that Mark W listed as only "one " cpin" in the series and all of a sudden there were five of each then it would bea good bet that at least one was counterfeit.Conversely the 1884CC is the cheapest of the series. I see no real mark up in counterfieting either. I have an 1880CC GSA MS63 PL certified by NGC. Even if I couldnt distinguish it as a PL nad I went to the NGC Coin Census and it showed that only 39 nwere graded and all of a sudden 100 of trhem appeared in a few days or even weeks then they would be highly suspect..

[Conder101]

Conversely the 1884CC is the cheapest of the series. I see no real mark up in counterfieting either.

Say I'm a counterfeiter. Planchet, in the proper material, costs me about $16, Say the fake GSA slab costs another $16, and manufacturing another $10 (I am deliberately estimating these cost high.) Cost to make a fake MS GSA 1884 CC dollar $42. Definitely profitable. Now if you mean putting a genuine 1884 CC dollar into a fake GSA slab, then I would agree, probably not worthwhile, and the only way it could be close to worthwhile would be to put AU coins in the fake slabs.

[CHABSENTIA]

Conversely the 1884CC is the cheapest of the series. I see no real mark up in counterfieting either.

Say I'm a counterfeiter. Planchet, in the proper material, costs me about $16, Say the fake GSA slab costs another $16, and manufacturing another $10 (I am deliberately estimating these cost high.) Cost to make a fake MS GSA 1884 CC dollar $42. Definitely profitable. Now if you mean putting a genuine 1884 CC dollar into a fake GSA slab, then I would agree, probably not worthwhile, and the only way it could be close to worthwhile would be to put AU coins in the fake slabs.

 

Exactly but the real money is not going to me made in the GSA slabs where there is only one issued unless the Buyer is really naive.

[gbsten]

Exactly but the real money is not going to me made in the GSA slabs where there is only one issued unless the Buyer is really naive.

 

It seems to me there would be plenty of money to be made with '78, '80, '81, and '85 GSA's. All of these are going to average $400 - $500 each.

[gbsten]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

 

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this picture?

[CHABSENTIA]

Exactly but the real money is not going to me made in the GSA slabs where there is only one issued unless the Buyer is really naive.

 

It seems to me there would be plenty of money to be made with '78, '80, '81, and '85 GSA's. All of these are going to average $400 - $500 each.

 

I wouldnt thinnk there would be an average value unless you take the same grade and the same year, How would you compare the average value of an 1884 CC GSA Morgan in MS63 with an 1885 CC GSA IN MS65?It gets much worse with an 1879 CC GSA Dollar.

 

Unless the person is really naive then there is no way that all of a sudden a bunch of GSA CC Dollars appear on the market and there is only one issued.

[CHABSENTIA]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

 

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this picture?

 

First of all, you dont show the back of it. There were non - CC dollars issued in the GSA slab and they are of much less value then the CC.

[bochiman]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

 

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this picture?

 

The "uncirculated" but heavily "toned" dollar in there?

The fact that it just doesn't "look right" to me?

[gbsten]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

 

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this picture?

 

The "uncirculated" but heavily "toned" dollar in there?

The fact that it just doesn't "look right" to me?

 

Bingo! I've looked at an awful lot of GSA dollars, first one ever that looked like that in an "uncirculated slab". Not to say it couldn't/hasn't happened, but has anyone ever seen one that fugly? Agreed also that the toning pattern doesn't look right. As I said earlier, lots of strange GSA slabs showing up recently. If heavily-toned they went in the soft-packs as circulated CC's, if lightly-toned or had excess markings they went in the "Siver Dollar" slab. If pristine they went in the "Uncirculated Silver Dollar" slab.

[CHABSENTIA]

What are everyone's thoughts on the on the GSA holders. I'm seeing these as the next chinese works of art. Lots of strange sales on ebay of these recently.

 

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this picture?

 

The "uncirculated" but heavily "toned" dollar in there?

The fact that it just doesn't "look right" to me?

 

Bingo! I've looked at an awful lot of GSA dollars, first one ever that looked like that in an "uncirculated slab". Not to say it couldn't/hasn't happened, but has anyone ever seen one that fugly? Agreed also that the toning pattern doesn't look right. As I said earlier, lots of strange GSA slabs showing up recently. If heavily-toned they went in the soft-packs as circulated CC's, if lightly-toned or had excess markings they went in the "Siver Dollar" slab. If pristine they went in the "Uncirculated Silver Dollar" slab.

 

I think you are making a big deal about next to nothing. In the first place as I mentioned earlier the reverse was not shown and it could have been an 1880P or an 1880 O in a GSA holder. I have seen these on E bay and have checked their Numismedia price and the sellers are trying to get as much as 4 times the vlaue because it is in a GSA holder.If a buyer is willing to pay these prices then it is a buyer problem..

 

Although it has been mentioned that as a rule "toned morgans are generally not placed in an "uncirculated" GSA holder I am not sure that this applies 100% of the time.

 

There is also the point that the GSA CC dollars are a small part of the total mintage of the given year.A previous poster listed the total mintage of the given year and the portion of GSA dollars. There are three separate years with only one GSA being issued in that year. If you saw three of that year being sold on EBay then you would know something is wrong. If you are not sure then just buy them graded by NGC

[gbsten]

This coin is a typical ebay wonder...item#310198616377 1880 CC

 

I note that he sold this coin also on January 27th and received positive "5 star, great for ebay" feedback. But here it is, back on the block? I guess the guy who paid $615 for it liked the seller more than the coin. I don't mean to bore you with my observations but I think it's important to note that there may be fake GSA slabs.