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1884 3CN: What are the chances this is real?

Started by RGT,

47 posts in this topic

RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Coins were struck to demand of the Treasurer of the US or on demand of specific depositors. It was not uncommon for the Treasurer to request $10,000 in eagles on Tuesday and on Wednesday decide they werent needed, but the coins had already been struck.

 

The US Mints did whatever they could to accommodate depositors of gold and silver. If a depositor requested payment in gold dollars or some other denomination, and none were available, then the mint would often strike them.

 

Roger, I believe we are thinking along the same lines. I would immediately assume the mint automatically had to make dies for silver coinage each year, on the chance that a depositor would demand conversion of some of his silver into currency. But I wasn't sure that the same line of reasoning would apply to nickel and copper coinage. So to phrase this as a question: Could or would depositors also request to have their non-precious metal coined?

 

Also, if I understand what you are saying, a depositor could, for example, deposit $3.00 in silver, but ask for 100 nickel three-cent coins instead of silver, correct?

 

hm

 

Is this likely?

 

I know that, in the early days of the mint, coins were very much "made to order" by depositors, hence the 635 original mintage of the 1815 half eagle.

 

But was this still the case by 1875 and later?

 

And why would the mint intentionally create what they knew would be stunning rarities, as in the case of the 1875 $1-$10, at 400, 400, 200, and 100 respectively, while at the same time, churning out nearly 300,000 $20s?

 

Granted, those numbers look like "an order"....but what about other years, like the 1881 and 1885 $2.50, the 1873, 1877, and 1878 $10s, and the '82 and '85 $20s?

 

And how does this account for the 3 cent nickels, too?

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Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted
. But I wasn't sure that the same line of reasoning would apply to nickel and copper coinage. So to phrase this as a question: Could or would depositors also request to have their non-precious metal coined?

No, the base metal coinage was coined on the government account only, and after 1873 the same holds true for the silver coinage. Depositors could have silver refined and/or cast into bars, but between Feb 1873 and 1878 the only silver coins they could have their bullion struck into were trade dollars and after 1876 they had to swear that the coins would be exported. All other silver was struck by the government for the government.

 

And why would the mint intentionally create what they knew would be stunning rarities, as in the case of the 1875 $1-$10, at 400, 400, 200, and 100 respectively, while at the same time, churning out nearly 300,000 $20s?[/quote}

Simple the government didn't care if they were creating rarities (And until recently those "Stunning rarities" didn't bring stunning prices because there were VERY few people collecting them.) Also some of the mint employees at the time had a thriving side business selling newly created rarities to collectors.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
. But I wasn't sure that the same line of reasoning would apply to nickel and copper coinage. So to phrase this as a question: Could or would depositors also request to have their non-precious metal coined?

No, the base metal coinage was coined on the government account only, and after 1873 the same holds true for the silver coinage. Depositors could have silver refined and/or cast into bars, but between Feb 1873 and 1878 the only silver coins they could have their bullion struck into were trade dollars and after 1876 they had to swear that the coins would be exported. All other silver was struck by the government for the government.

 

Thanks! Great info!

 

And why would the mint intentionally create what they knew would be stunning rarities, as in the case of the 1875 $1-$10, at 400, 400, 200, and 100 respectively, while at the same time, churning out nearly 300,000 $20s?

Simple the government didn't care if they were creating rarities (And until recently those "Stunning rarities" didn't bring stunning prices because there were VERY few people collecting them.) Also some of the mint employees at the time had a thriving side business selling newly created rarities to collectors.

 

Mmmmm...I'm not so sure about this. When coin collecting really took off in the late 1850's, the Mint....either with "official knowledge" or without...began making all sorts of restrikes and fantasy coins to appeal to collectors, along with regular proof coinage. By the 1870's, this was in full swing, so, while the Feds may not have cared, I seriously doubt the Mint and her officials didn't.

 

Prices for certain pieces were most certainly stunning for their day. As you noted, the side business was thriving, which meant there were, indeed, quite a few customers for these pieces, including Parmelee.

 

hm

 

 

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

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bartlesvilleok

bartlesvilleok

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

Seroiusly, I just love the fact that you guys can deal in these ridiculously scarce coins, and some of the most experienced, hard core collectors still don't have certain pieces in their sets.

 

Rarefied atmosphere indeed...

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
When coin collecting really took off in the late 1850's, the Mint....either with "official knowledge" or without...began making all sorts of restrikes and fantasy coins to appeal to collectors, along with regular proof coinage. By the 1870's, this was in full swing, so, while the Feds may not have cared, I seriously doubt the Mint and her officials didn't.

 

Prices for certain pieces were most certainly stunning for their day. As you noted, the side business was thriving, which meant there were, indeed, quite a few customers for these pieces, including Parmelee.

To say that collecting "took off" in the 1850s is relative. What it means is that the number of collectors may have doubled - from three to six collectors lol ! Seriously, there wasn't really a vast number of coin collectors in the U.S. until the twentieth century, from what I understand. So, even a coin with a mintage of 100, which seems absurdly low today, may have been plenty adequate for the number of "serious" collectors in 1850.

 

I remember seeing an old photograph of a "major coin auction" of the mid 1800s, and there was something like thirteen bidders in attendance. And that was considered a heavily attended sale.

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bartlesvilleok

bartlesvilleok

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

Seroiusly, I just love the fact that you guys can deal in these ridiculously scarce coins, and some of the most experienced, hard core collectors still don't have certain pieces in their sets.

 

Rarefied atmosphere indeed...

 

I have only been working on this set for about 18 months now and while it does have less then 30 pieces in it sets do take a while to build. Also I have never claimed to be the most experienced or a hard core collector.

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

i wouild love to look at your set but i cant seen to find which one you are,

 

could you tell me what name it is listed under?? and/or post a link??

 

thanks

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bartlesvilleok

bartlesvilleok

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

i wouild love to look at your set but i cant seen to find which one you are,

 

could you tell me what name it is listed under?? and/or post a link??

 

thanks

 

Just click the banner below for the one you want to view

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

Seroiusly, I just love the fact that you guys can deal in these ridiculously scarce coins, and some of the most experienced, hard core collectors still don't have certain pieces in their sets.

 

Rarefied atmosphere indeed...

 

I have only been working on this set for about 18 months now and while it does have less then 30 pieces in it sets do take a while to build. Also I have never claimed to be the most experienced or a hard core collector.

 

Oh.

 

Well.

 

Ok, then.

 

(I was trying to give you a compliment. ;) )

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bartlesvilleok

bartlesvilleok

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

Seroiusly, I just love the fact that you guys can deal in these ridiculously scarce coins, and some of the most experienced, hard core collectors still don't have certain pieces in their sets.

 

Rarefied atmosphere indeed...

 

I have only been working on this set for about 18 months now and while it does have less then 30 pieces in it sets do take a while to build. Also I have never claimed to be the most experienced or a hard core collector.

 

Oh.

 

Well.

 

Ok, then.

 

(I was trying to give you a compliment. ;) )

 

lol sorry about that. I thought you were being a smart

 

Must of had a bad day at work or something.

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

i wouild love to look at your set but i cant seen to find which one you are,

 

could you tell me what name it is listed under?? and/or post a link??

 

thanks

 

Just click the banner below for the one you want to view

 

Unless I'm missing something, you have an AU example of the 1884 in your set -- that's not quite what Michael was referring to when he said "gem" if I've understood him correctly.

 

Nice set, BTW....Mike

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted
from the pops and availability of the 1884 business strike 3cn it is actually a scarcer coin in business strike in high grades than even its lower mintage 1885 brother in business strike

 

there is a romance about the 1885 that sets it apart as the best key date of the series

 

but

 

a gem 1884 in business strike would be rarer than an 1885 by two in mintstate grades

 

seeing an 1884 gem business strike would be a really rare coin i have seen some 1885 mintstate coins for sale in pcgs/ngc never an 1884 in pcgs/ngc

 

and i have looked

 

There is a pic of a 84 in my set. I am still missing the 83 and 85

 

i wouild love to look at your set but i cant seen to find which one you are,

 

could you tell me what name it is listed under?? and/or post a link??

 

thanks

 

Just click the banner below for the one you want to view

 

just saw your 1884 circ au55 pcgs in your set

 

NICE COIN BY THE WAY :cloud9: AND the ultimate in rarity

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

good luck as i am sure there are many more 1885 circ strikes but it is difficult to tell on most if not impossible without the coin being unc. so the good luck part is being able to tell for 100% sure if you got a biz strike 1885 or not

 

but the lore and demand of the 1885 does make it more expensive but not more rare than the 1884

 

there are also a precious few biz strike 1885's in pcgs proof holders

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