A $14,000 story.

[EZ_E]

I simply can't figure this one out--An ungraded BU Roanoke commemorative half dollar with an Eliasberg pedigree with a $14,500 price tag!

 

The seller provides a wonderful, detailed story and nice pics but is that worth a $14,000 premium?

 

Granted, Eliasberg is the crown of all pedigrees but what premium do you actually think it is worth?

 

Here's the buyer's well-written and entertaining description:

 

[font:Comic Sans MS]

The Roanoke Island half dollar of 1937 is one of the most interesting U.S. commemorative coins, in terms of both its subject and its design. It was issued to mark the 350th anniversary of Sir Walter Raleigh’s “Lost Colony” on Roanoke Island, North Carolina, and the birth of Virginia Dare, the first white child born in America. In 1857, Raleigh was instrumental in sending a group of more than 100 colonists to the New World. They were left on Roanoke Island-where, on August 19 of that year, Virginia Dare was born. Raleigh never set foot there himself, and the colony appears to have been wiped out. Nonetheless, the episode was important, for it represented a major step toward permanent colonization of America. The obverse of the coin bears a left-facing bust of Raleigh wearing a plumed hat and ruffled collar. Its reverse presents a full-figure portrait of Ellinor Dare cradling her daughter, Virginia, in her arms. Two sailing ships appear in the background, to her left and right. This highly attractive art work was fashioned by William Mark Simpson, a talented sculptor-medallist from Baltimore.

 

The legislation authorizing the Roanoke Island half-dollar specified a minimum mintage, rather than a maximum. Congress decreed that the Mint should produce no fewer than 25,000 examples of the coin. In point of fact, it made two separate strikings of 25,015 each, for a total of 50,030-but 21,000 later were melted, leaving a net mintage of 29,030. The appealing design is enhanced by the fact that almost all examples were well struck. And the story behind the coin is unusually fascinating, too. With all these pluses, it’s not at all surprising that this coin is a favorite with collectors.

 

Roanoke Colony Half Dollar

 

The story of the Lost Colony of Roanoke Island is a sobering reminder of how risky a journey to the New World was in the 16th Century. It’s a romantic tale, but one tinged with sadness at the lives lost. Though it pertained to a specific geographical location, the commemorative half dollar issued to recall this settlement nevertheless marked a chapter in American history worthy of remembrance by all.

 

 

 

Among the many adventures in the life of Sir Walter Raleigh (1552?-1618), his establishment of a colony in America was perhaps one of the least significant. Showered with favors by an enchanted Queen Elizabeth I of England, Raleigh was granted a patent in 1584 to explore “remote heathen and barbarous lands.” Rather than undertake such a journey himself, he instead equipped two ships and directed them to find a suitable anchorage in America at some point in proximity to Florida, then a colony of England’s arch-enemy Spain. His agents reported that an island the natives called Roanoke, located off the coast of what is now North Carolina, offered the desired attributes. Furthermore, the inhabitants showed no antagonism toward the English. Queen Elizabeth bestowed the name Virginia upon the entire region adjacent to Roanoke Island, a tribute both to the land’s newness to Europeans and to her own highly publicized virtue.

 

 

 

In 1585, Raleigh dispatched seven ships to Roanoke with 107 colonists under the command of his cousin, Sir Richard Grenville. The latter returned to England to procure additional supplies, leaving the settlers in the care of Ralph Lane. The severity of life in America soon overwhelmed their resources. When Sir Francis Drake, returning from a raiding expedition against the Spanish Main, stopped at Roanoke the following year, he found the colonists in a miserable state and more than willing to accept his offer of transport to England. Sometime afterward, Grenville returned with supplies and additional colonists. Finding no signs of life, he detailed 15 of his men to the island with provisions sufficient to last them two years.

 

 

 

Despairing of any profit from his colony, Raleigh placed the venture in the hands of a joint stock company willing to risk its own capital. Known as the City of Raleigh in Virginia, in 1587 this company financed the journey of three ships to America, carrying nearly 125 colonists. Raleigh’s instructions were to pick up the 15 men left on Roanoke and then proceed to the more inviting Chesapeake Bay, where all the colonists were to be landed. Discovering that the 15 had perished, the ships’ commander, Simon Ferdinando, inexplicably abandoned the colonists on Roanoke, refusing the orders of Governor John White to take them to their destination.

 

 

 

White returned with Ferdinando to England to arrange for additional supplies, expecting to return soon. War with Spain, however, tied up all available ships for the next several years. It was not until 1590 that White returned to Roanoke, only to discover that his own family and all of the other colonists as well had vanished without a trace. The only sign of their inhabitation was the word CROATOAN carved into a tree trunk. The name of an adjoining island, its connection to the settlers was never determined. Sadly, White and his company sailed for England, and the fate of the Lost Colony remains a mystery to this day.

 

 

 

In remembrance of the 350th anniversary of the Roanoke Island settlement, the Roanoke Colony Memorial Association was formed. It successfully petitioned Congress for a commemorative coin marking the event, though the original draft bill called for a medal instead. This issue likewise celebrated Old Fort Raleigh on Roanoke Island and the birth of Virginia Dare, granddaughter of John White and the first European born on American soil. Perhaps because of space considerations, no mention of the fort appears on the coins.

 

 

 

The designer of the Roanoke half dollar was William Marks Simpson, who also created coins honoring the Battle of Antietam and the Bicentennial of Norfolk, Virginia. He produced two sets of models, the first receiving a tentative approval from the Federal Commission of Fine Arts. Incorporating the minor changes suggested by sculptor member Lee Lawrie, Simpson prepared a second pair of models. These were approved by the commission on December 12, 1936, though it was adamant that his older spelling of Ralegh be changed to Raleigh, in keeping with modern practice. As completed, the design depicts a left-facing bust of Sir Walter Raleigh on the obverse, a likeness frequently compared to actor Errol Flynn. Its reverse is dominated by a standing figure of Elinor Dare holding the infant Virginia. In addition to the commemorative and statutory inscriptions are a pair of ships, merely representative of sea travel, and a pine sapling. The artist’s stylized initials appear beneath the truncation of Raleigh’s bust.

 

 

 

Becoming law on June 24, 1936, the Roanoke bill called for the minting of not less than 25,000 half dollars, though no maximum was specified. These were to be dated 1937, regardless of when they were struck. Some limit was imposed, however, as none could be struck after July 1, 1937. In actual fact, a total of 50,030 pieces was coined (the odd 30 coins were reserved for assay and not issued). Minted in two press runs (January and June of 1937), some 25,015 halves were coined in each. All were produced at the Philadelphia Mint, though the hub reductions had been performed by Medallic Art Company of New York.

 

 

 

In late 1936, the Roanoke Colony Memorial Association began offering its coins by mail at $1.65 each, which included 15 cents for postage. Though the booming market in commemorative coins had already peaked the previous summer and the entire hobby was suffering from a hangover, the Association proceeded with a second order of coins in June of 1937, just before the mandatory deadline of July 1. This proved excessive, as sales soon dwindled. Ultimately, some 21,000 coins were returned to the Philadelphia Mint, leaving a net mintage for this type of 29,000.

 

 

 

Though some coins were likely sold during the August 1937 celebration at Old Fort Riley, most appear to have been distributed through the mail to coin collectors. For that reason, many have survived in uncirculated condition. In fact, most specimens are quite choice, and pieces grading as high as MS-65 are plentiful. Surface quality will vary from prooflike to satiny, the former representing pieces coined from fresh dies. Though most Roanoke halves are well struck, a few may show weakness on Raleigh’s ear or the brim of his hat. Elinor Dare’s head is another potential trouble spot. While worn examples are rare, check these same highpoints for signs of wear, as well as Elinor’s upper left arm.

 

 

 

The experts disagree as to whether the handful of very flashy and well struck specimens sometimes described as proofs are indeed proof coins. Nevertheless, these pieces carry a premium for their obviously superior quality.

 

 

 

Roanoke halves were distributed in white, cardstock holders that could accommodate up to five coins. The front cover of each holder depicts the coin’s obverse and reverse, as well as the dates 1587-1937. Inside is found a brief description of the coin and a short history of the first English settlements in America. These holders and the coins they contained were shipped in light tan mailing envelopes inscribed ROANOKE COLONY MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION OF MANTEO, N.C. Also found on the envelope are spaces designated VALUE and NO., presumably to indicate the contents. These envelopes were sealed with red wax. Both the holders and the envelopes are highly collectable; the two together are particularly prized by commemorative coin enthusiasts.[/font]

 

 

 

SPECIFICATIONS:

 

 

 

Diameter: 30.6 millimeters

 

Weight: 12.5 grams

 

Composition: .900 silver, .100 copper

 

Edge: Reeded

 

Net Weight: .36169 ounce pure silver

[WinstonWare]

All you need is two people who think it's worth that much. Apparently, they both showed up at this auction Is your question what would it be worth to us?

[MBA101]

All you need is two people who think it's worth that much. Apparently, they both showed up at this auction Is your question what would it be worth to us?

 

its not an auction. Just a $14.5K listing...

 

 

No way in H E double hockey sticks will anyone buy it.

[gpnyc]

Here's my only Eliasberg coin. This 1361 gold Noble is in an NGC 50 holder and cost less than $3,000. Apologies for posting dark side material on the US coin forum but I thought it might put this ridiculous asking price in perspective.

 

[WinstonWare]

All you need is two people who think it's worth that much. Apparently, they both showed up at this auction Is your question what would it be worth to us?

 

its not an auction. Just a $14.5K listing...

 

No way in H E double hockey sticks will anyone buy it.

 

Sorry. I should finish my coffee before I post. That same seller has a $1,000,000.00 auction for a $2 note. I don’t know have any idea what that’s worth but I’ve never seen a $1,000,000.00 auction on ebay…

[DC Dawg]

Gee... for $14.5K he could ship the coin for free!!

[BillJones]

I guess having the coin in the Eliasberg auction holder is nice, but those holders are loaded with PVC. You can't seal the safty flips the way this one was done.

 

At $14.5 grand I'll pass. I guess this guy hasn't heard that the old commemorative half dollars are out of favor in this market.

[James_OldeTowne]

To tell you the truth, it sounds like something I do. When I have a coin I don't really want to sell, I put an outrageous price tag on it that nobody in his right mind would even consider. While this may appear to some to be an attempted money-grab, what it does do (or at least, what my and maybe that seller's purpose is) is provide an opportunity to show off a really neat or nice coin that might not otherwise be put out to enjoy.

 

Just another perspective to consider...

[MBA101]

To tell you the truth, it sounds like something I do. When I have a coin I don't really want to sell, I put an outrageous price tag on it that nobody in his right mind would even consider. While this may appear to some to be an attempted money-grab, what it does do (or at least, what my and maybe that seller's purpose is) is provide an opportunity to show off a really neat or nice coin that might not otherwise be put out to enjoy.

 

Just another perspective to consider...

 

That coin has its own forum post with people discussing it right here at NGC! You are right, not a bad way to advertise...

[RWB]

This 1361 gold Noble is in an NGC 50 holder and cost less than $3,000.

 

Beautiful example and a quite a price!. Much more character than an overpriced plastic slab!

[Barndog]

mine is nicer and already in a holder.

I'll sell it for half that amount!

 

 

 

[realone]

Here's my two sense.

I love the Eliasberg pedigree, but it has to be a spectacular coin worthy of the pedigree and visa versa. If you look at the Eliasberg collection catalog you can't help but notice that there were tons of coins, many spectacular and some not so nice, could it be when he passed the family put everything up for sale including his dogs to get lost in the sale.

 

One noted dealer that I won't name also has aN Eliasberg coin that he purchased at the 1996 sale but it isn't holderdd and it is in a flip, a new flip since the original ones were made with pvc and the card that came with the coin from the auction like the one that this individual seller shows, but I matched up the coin to the photo in the catalog, question did you do that, becasue if you didn't it many not be the same Eliasberg coin. Then I sent in the coin to get graded, it was bagged 2xc by ngc and then I sent it to pcgs where it came back ms62 2x and yet in the catalog it was graded an ms65 by Bowers.

 

So the point of my speech is if it isn't in a pcgs or ngc slab there has go to be a good reason and if it is in the original flip then it has to have pvc problems and if it was removed from the original flip then you must verify it is the actual Eliasberg coin because the card doesn't make it so.

 

Lastly is it worth $14k, well what is the pcgs price guide for such a coin in the grade that you believe it is?

[World Colonial]

Some people might pay a premium for a pedigree but I would not unless it was a rare or expensive one that needed the ownership history to provide some added assurance over its authenticity or something like that.

[Glossy]

I'm not into pedigree's or coins like this. But pedigree aside, what would this could sell for at auction?

[EZ_E]

I'm not into pedigree's or coins like this. But pedigree aside, what would this could sell for at auction?

 

At the most for this unattractive coin: $250. Maybe someone would pay $500 with the pedigree but not even.

[Glossy]

I'm not into pedigree's or coins like this. But pedigree aside, what would this could sell for at auction?

 

At the most for this unattractive coin: $250. Maybe someone would pay $500 with the pedigree but not even.

 

Now I get it. Where's the emoticon for "question over the head"?

[World Colonial]

If that coin sold for $250, I would be shocked. The issue "only" has a mintage of about 29,000 but the combined NGC and PCGS census is over 8000. This month, a PCGS MS-66 sold for $264 on Heritage. I doubt that coin is anywhere near that grade and it would probably sell for less than $100 without the pedigree.

[DC Dawg]

Here's my two sense.

I love the Eliasberg pedigree, but it has to be a spectacular coin worthy of the pedigree and visa versa. If you look at the Eliasberg collection catalog you can't help but notice that there were tons of coins, many spectacular and some not so nice, could it be when he passed the family put everything up for sale including his dogs to get lost in the sale.

Not every Eliasberg coin was a gem. When he started, he would buy anything to "fill a hole" with the idea that he would upgrade later. Later in life, Eliasberg upgraded some of his coins, but never finished. He died in 1976 and his collection were sold off in 3 auction, one in the early 1980s and two in the mid 1990s.

 

Interesting side note... I work with a relative (not sibling) of Louis Eliasberg. There were no interesting stories other than what has been published.

 

Scott

[realone]

Here's my two sense.

I love the Eliasberg pedigree, but it has to be a spectacular coin worthy of the pedigree and visa versa. If you look at the Eliasberg collection catalog you can't help but notice that there were tons of coins, many spectacular and some not so nice, could it be when he passed the family put everything up for sale including his dogs to get lost in the sale.

Not every Eliasberg coin was a gem. When he started, he would buy anything to "fill a hole" with the idea that he would upgrade later. Later in life, Eliasberg upgraded some of his coins, but never finished. He died in 1976 and his collection were sold off in 3 auction, one in the early 1980s and two in the mid 1990s.

 

Interesting side note... I work with a relative (not sibling) of Louis Eliasberg. There were no interesting stories other than what has been published.

 

Scott

 

I just want to be clear with what I stated. Again not every coin was a gem and there were many dogs in the collection, but his gems oft were numismatic homeruns and none better, and those that I speak of came from Clapp/Chapman and I would buy every bust dime and bust half dime with that pedigree, they were gorgeously toned, with original surfaces in condition census grade, simply spectacular coins, I am fortunate enough to own 2 of them, both were bought unattributed but nevertheless match the auction catalog and are breath taking to say the least. Mr Elaisberg , if he were just filling holes as you say, his holes are different than most, he had deep pockets, the top dealers looking for him and bought some great entire collections like the one from Clapp. I wouldn't describe Clapp as just trying to fill holes either, I truly believe you are putting an incorrect spin in you post becasue if you were right then I wouldn't own two incredible bust dimes and the catalog wouldn't be filled with some of the finest bust dimes and bust half dimes that I have ever saw.

[ldhair]

I bought several coins from these auctions. There were a lot of just average coins.

I'm sure the man bought sets and groups because he only needed some of them or possibly just one of them.

 

I'm shocked the op coin is still in that auction holder. The PVC problem is well known. At one point Bowers sent a note with these auction holders that said the coin should be moved to a new holder.

[RareSov]

I've got coins I don't want to sell and the markup is only 20% (ok 20% over retail).. they are really choice and selling seems wrong

 

$14,000 is just ridiculous.. fishing for a fool who buys big price items

[jackson64]

I think James may be onto something..maybe he just wanted to show it off and has no intent on selling it--unless of course someone forks out $14.5 K...it is still a nice numismatic item though...

 

truth be told though, anyone that desperate for a Roanoke...I'll sell mine for only a $1000 price and pay shipping too

[EZ_E]

I think James may be onto something..maybe he just wanted to show it off and has no intent on selling it--unless of course someone forks out $14.5 K

 

Regardless of the justification, it is still an aberration which reflects negatively upon one's character, IMO, unless it is clearly stated in the auction.

[bartlesvilleok]

Here is my only Eliasberg. A little closer to the 14k but still a ways away.

However if anyone out there wants to give me 14k for it then it is yours.

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/UserCoinDetail.aspx?UserCoinID=11099

[jackson64]

oh my Chris...I never get tired of seeing that coin. I know how challenging ( and pricey) a nice 1865 Proof can be, but your Judd is amazing !!..I'm guessing that this design has an extra "leafiness" to the wreath?...

 

PS: I'd still prefer that Judd- 413( 1865 PF) copper of yours

[bartlesvilleok]

it is pretty much the same thing but the ribbons are longer on it and go down into the dentils.I think that my j-618 is the one that has the extra leafiness

[Houston Investor]

I don't believe in paying premiums for pedigreed coins in the first place.

 

The idea this would be a $14.5 k coin is an absurdity. It would really take a big fool to pay this. I call this the case of the big fool looking for the bigger fool!

 

In my view, Its the coin, not the holder, not the owner, etc that has value.

 

I can't believe a seller would really believe somoeone would pay this and spend so much time on that writeup but I guess it takes all kinds.

[realone]

I agree it is the coin and not the holder nor the owner, but that being said there is something to be said for a great pedigree when the coin is also great. As an example I was fortunate enough to buy a wonderful bust dime very recently with the following pedigree:

Ex:Allen F Lovejoy, Early US Dime Plate Coin/Harold S Bareford/Will W Neil.

What we have is 3 great former collectors/numismatists who obviously thought high enough of this coin to have it included in their collections of the best bust dimes that they could acquire. Could all 3 of these gentleman be mistaken about the coin's quality, I highly doubt it. Now of course I have to love the coin, and it is struck wonderfully, totally original surfaces and naturally toned, a high grade, a definite conditional census piece and quite possible the finest known and second highest graded. These men knew their stuff, other than the last 14 years the coin's ownership can be traced back almost 100 years.All the descriptions match either written or through photo so we know the coin has stayed the same which in this day and age is a comforting fact. I will take a coin like this over most bust dimes out there without a pedigree becasue odds are due to the pedigree the coin is bound to be top shelf imho and its lineage supports its grade/eye appeal.

[EZ_E]

No pics?!

 

[realone]

I am taking the coin to Mark Goodman, the moment i get it back i will have someone more knowledgeable about posting pics post it for me ( I am a computer insufficiently_thoughtful_person) so please bear with me.

Thanks for asking!