Walkers: Full thumb vs. Weak thumb

[pendragon1998]

I'm looking for a 43-P walker (but this post isn't about that, really). One of my criteria is that the coin must have a full thumb. I've gotten the odd comment that I'm being too picky about the thumb thing. I invite you to compare these two images. On the left is an NGC MS65 coin in an NGC modern holder (the recent slab generation just prior to the awful new prong holders). On the right is a PCGS MS65 coin in an old "Doily" holder (Q: Hey, aren't old slabs supposed to be undergraded? A: Not always!). Judge for yourself if I'm being overly obsessed with thumbs as indicators of strike.

 

FWIW: the coin on the left, although sporting a pretty thumb indeed, didn't get my bid because of an apparent dipping-related issue and some rim-crackle. Broke my heart too.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Not a darn thing wrong with wanting a “full thumb” on Ms. Walking Liberty. This high spot on the coin, low spot on the die is the indicator that makes or breaks an excellent deal vs. a good deal.

 

There are so many factors that come into play here when comparing thumbs. What does come into play and not necessarily in any order and can also be a combination of but not restricted to and that is striking pressure, annealing, die states and lastly minting facilities which includes the machinery and the personnel .

 

Denver and Philly seemed to produce the best run of full thumb coins, with San Francisco never seeming to get it right, but that’s a whole other story. Note: Frisco could stamp out some beauties with new dies, and half way prepared planchets, but all too soon weak areas began to show on both obv and rev. but like New Orleans, their function was to produce coins and not dazzling beauties. (unlike most S minted Morgans, the teens through 1937 were not notable eras for Frisco’s minted business strikes)

 

Back to the thumb.

 

Most if not all Walker collectors denote certain areas on these coins to relay grade and quality. Luster plays an important part, but I do believe a strong strike is needed to really bring out the beauty of this series. And that strong strike will fill those low areas on the die and impart one of the most intricate of designs on the Walking Liberty. Normally, a weak obverse strike means the reverse eagle will be missing intricate detail as well, bringing even more detriment to the collector. Sure, these were fine for circulation, but as far as collectors were concerned, a nicely struck coin is a handsome coin.

 

Ever since I can remember, back into the middle 60’s a fully struck Walker always commanded more attention regardless of the mint. As far as the grading services were concerned, a coin struck “as is” weak or strong was only a fraction of the grade. They looked at bag marks, hits and other misnomers to attain a grade. A coin with a full thumb but full of bag marks in the focal areas might grade out as MS-64 but a weaker struck coin with virtually no thumb, but had fewer marks with nice luster, will grade out MS-65! Go figure?

 

So, you have to have the best of both worlds, i.e.: a fully struck, lustrous, mark free coin for it to fall into the old terminology of Gem Brilliant Uncirculated or MS-65+++ but leaning to 66.

 

Once you get to 66, all the bells and whistles better be signaling to you, this is a rarity among the masses.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I've always questioned this "full thumb" thing. I think the forefinger with a fully defined fingertip is a better PUP (pickup point) with regard to strike. And maybe most important of all at the central area, vertical skirtlines need to be full and of consistent delineation from top to bottom. Also, look at her sandals and make sure every strap is intricately detailed.

 

For some reason, I like looking at AW's monogram on the reverse as well. I like it when that is fully and deeply impressed on a well struck coin.

[Dcoin]

This is a great thread in the sense that it highlight how collectors value different aspects of a coin. James called it PUP and I suppose every coin has them.

 

I think the art of collecting comes in balancing PUP with overall eye appeal.

[physics-fan3.14]

I don't really know much about Walkers (and I'm sure supertooth will chime in here pretty soon with his usual excellent commentary) but as a FBL Franklin collector, I definitely understand where your are coming from. The fully struck coin is far more appealing, and worth a premium. Just because the TPGs don't designate it doesn't mean its not important - just like Full Talons to some SBA collectors.

[pendragon1998]

I've always questioned this "full thumb" thing. I think the forefinger with a fully defined fingertip is a better PUP (pickup point) with regard to strike. And maybe most important of all at the central area, vertical skirtlines need to be full and of consistent delineation from top to bottom. Also, look at her sandals and make sure every strap is intricately detailed.

 

For some reason, I like looking at AW's monogram on the reverse as well. I like it when that is fully and deeply impressed on a well struck coin.

 

 

My feeling is that when you have a good thumb, you're probably going to have a well-struck coin that also has the forefinger. I suppose there could be a bit of variation. The left leg and left breast area are also good indicators of a weak strike, because they're such large areas that they show luster breaks well.

[DC Dawg]

I don't know... but that one on the right does not look MS65 to me, unless it's the image.

 

[pendragon1998]

Here are some photos I took last year of that one:

 

Two lights:

 

Axial lighting:

[prudden]

I really don't like the way they look without the full hand. It usually means the reverse is soft too. I've been looking for a decent 65 with a "full hand" as well and they are few and far between.

[MikeKing]

You're an astute collector, of course you want a full thumb. This is one of the key elements as stated above. If it were a 1921 S, then maybe you're asking too much, but not for the coin your interested in. Just wait and wait until it comes.

 

Hell, I'm still waiting for a good 1936 PF, and an 1808 50C that I have yet to find which is suitable. And that's been years for the 1808.

 

 

[supertooth]

Michael------ Excellent post subject

 

Jason----I hope a worthwhile response

 

In this case both Woody and James have it about covered nicely----which is why I was not in any hurry to respond. But, as you think about different series---different attributes show up within each series.

 

For example---Like with the Walkers, I had two sets of Franklins as a kid---many of the later coins were Unc [bU]. But, in those days, many collectors did not ever really think much about the strike----or at least I did not. I just wanted a decent representative coin for each year and mint. It wasn't until just awhile ago---when I purchased two "original" BU sets---that I really started to learn about the Franklin series----and how really little that I had known about the coins. A crash course has improved my abilities a bit.

 

So, when dealing with Walkers, so too it goes. Will you WANT to spend the NECESSARY time to really know the series?? Michael has been looking for what I would call the "perfect for the grade" MS65 coin. It is the easiest date---1943---and, with it being a Philly minted coin, it is usually a pretty decently struck coin. But, when you add that he wants decent luster---few marks----decent thumb and finger----not overdipped---good eye appeal----WOW---you suddenly have to look for the 1% of the graded MS65 coins that "JUST MIGHT" meet his requirements.

 

So, I laughed----and I am still looking. But, recent PCGS forum posts on the strike of the "S" minted Walker later dated coins sort of peaked my interest. Having multiple coins with the same date and mintmark, I can sit coins down "side by side". That is a wonderful thing to be able to do----as you can then COMPARE----and you can start to think, well, this is a poor 64 but this one is a strong 64. Works for MS65 too----whatever MS grade that you might have a lot of coins to look at---at the same time.

 

Anyway, as you sit and look at the strikes for similarily graded "S" minted Walkers, it becomes apparent that----like some Franklin collectors that we know---you can get to the point where the strike alone can determine whether you want the coin or not. It isn't that you don't want the eye appeal---or the luster---or the lack of marks---or anything else. But what you do want is a well struck up coin for the grade. I guess that you could say that also about folks who want a toned coin---or want one with tremendous luster. Whatever floats your bubble.

 

I like a well struck up coin. I recently bought a 43S Walker with a certainly BETTER strike for an "S" minted coin. It grades a PCGS MS65---and the coin is the best struck 43S coin of the 5 MS coins that I own. There is a "WORLD" of difference between that MS65 coin than a perfectly wonderful "original skinned" MS64 coin that I own. You just CAN"T imagine that difference for just one point in grade. The MS64 is virtually flat thumb and finger----while the 65 is good thumb and most of the finger with even the little knuckle showing up. The difference is outstanding---even looking at the coins with the naked eye.

 

So, each coin MUST be taken on its own merits. Some will be better in some ways while others might be better in "other" areas. Then, in your mind, you must be able to put all the variables together----and come up with a final opinion. Isn't that pretty much what all of us must do---no matter which series that we collect??

 

The key may be when you want it "ALL" in the "single" coin. And----for Walkers----that is not always very easy to do. The 'perfect for the grade" coins---with quality in "all" the areas that one looks at----that is a tough Walker to find----especially an "S" minted coin. Good hunting to all of you. Bob [supertooth]

[relicsncoins]

Here are the only two unc walkers I own.

 

First is a 1943 S which is weakly struck, or maybe normally struck for a 43 S depending on how you look at it.

 

 

Next is a 1942 P, which has a much better strike.

 

[prudden]

Would this be close to a full hand?Only found the one picture

[pendragon1998]

Yes, that's actually the one I'm talking about in the top post. The reason I passed on it was that spot in the date, which looks like it's likely a corrosion spot from a bad dip job. The rims on both sides also appear to have something going on around the 3 o'clock mark.

[prudden]

Yes, that's actually the one I'm talking about in the top post. The reason I passed on it was that spot in the date, which looks like it's likely a corrosion spot from a bad dip job. The rims on both sides also appear to have something going on around the 3 o'clock mark.

 

Yup,you are right.Almost perfect,but not quite. I looked through 4-5 days of Ebay auctions and that is the only 65(PCGS or NGC) with a good hand that I could find. Granted,some of the pictures were too small to tell but surprisingly not that many.I came across some that were flat half way up the arm!! I also looked at just about anything from 64 to 67 in later dates and even the few 67's didn't have the full hand. So, I guess it'll take time and it will be worth the wait.

[MikeKing]

The 1919 D in PCGS 66 went for $ 253,000.00 link