"Altered Surface" NCS Response to Question?

[RareSov]

I don't agree with "return of most of the submission fee"

 

How is that fair ? they did their job, examined your coin. At the end of the day, they have graders to pay, other costs to pay, and you want your money back ? perhaps in the current situation a small refund - to cover the encapsulation part which didn't occur. But definitely not "most" of the fee !

 

I do think it is fair to encapsulate in a NCS slab for you though. That way everyone pays for

 

a) examination

 

b) encapsulation

 

..and everyone GETS both a) and b)

 

[Oldtrader3]

Realone, I take some umbrage to your statement regarding my "knowing what I am looking at" in regards to the flying eagle cent which was bagged by NGC for altered surfaces. I have been collecting for nearly 50 years and feel that I probably can judge a coin's surfaces with some reliable degree of accuracy. I have been collecting cents, two cents and half cents since 1954. This is especially true when the coin is an AU58-RB cent with regular surfaces and natural brown toning hues containing no chemically induced coloration (ie, MS70 lavender).

 

BTW, the coin got by Rick Snow and his minions as he was the dealer who originally sold it to me.

 

 

[Smilie Puss]

realone

 

Let me see if I can explain this another way.

 

I take my car into the service center and I say my 'engine check' light is on and they fail to determine what the problem is and then charge you for the time they took to look into the problem which amounts to $150. Now being a meat and potatoes guy you say "no way" you didn't fix the problem or tell me what the problem was. You also say that "why sould I pay your overhead cost" for services not rendered just so I am subsidizing all the other mechanics?

 

This is the problem in a nut shell. Yes they took time to look at your coin. How much time is anyones guess. The idea is to get your coin certified/graded/holdered and back to you SAS. Now remember if you had sent the coin in by mail you payed S/H/I. You also payed for the coin to be returned for S/H/I. The cost to certify/grade/holder is more than to just put it into a body bag (less steps in the process and material and people). Then it was judged to be 'Altered' for who knows why? and your $100,000 coin is now worth what $75,000 and you overpaid for $25,000 worth of insurance. The submitter is getting screwed royaly. Why should the grader get paid the same for doing less work or not telling you what made the coin to be 'Altered'? Unless you believe you owe some allegiance to the greader for his cost based 'quality' service. Or would you rather be in control of where your dollars are spent. To buy more coins! The choice is up to you of course. Have I made my point?

[Smilie Puss]

WJ

 

 

Auction catalogers had been given information that 'orange peel' was s secret mint process inorder that a gold proof coins (late 19 th & early 20 th) could not be counterfeited. Sounds plausable but not correct.

 

What's at issue here is the formation of solid solutions of coin metal alloy's. Glass like coinage metals, for example, is an example of a solid solution. Why? because the bonding of the ingrediants (silicon, soduim, calcium. oxygen, carbonates etc) in the glass (soda lime) are different than crystaline materials such as pure metals or salts. Crystalline materials either take in heat (endotherm) at the melting point or give off energy (exdothermic) when the solidify or freeze. Solid solutions (glass, coinage metal alloy's etc.) , on the other hand, neither give off heat or take in energy when solidifying or melting ( if solidifying or melting is a correct terminology). Think of glass as being a very viscous or plastic solution.Glass is not suitable to make coins because it shatters when pressure is applied. Gold, silver, nickle, copper alloys are perfect because they are malleable and can be shaped under pressure. Are you with me WJ?

 

Any way to make a short story long the reason for the 'orange peel' effect has to do with the annealing temperatures of different coinage metals (alloy's or solid solution mixtures). Too high an annealing temperature and presto! when pressure is applied to the alloy's surface the result is 'orange peel'. If ,on the other hand, the coinage metal is correctly annealed then a mirror like surface may result depending on the dies polished surface. Note the 'orange peel' is only seen in the coins field because that is where the greatest pressure is exerted by the dies causing the metal to move into the dies devices or voids. So there you have it with the bark on. Wa da ya tink?

[realone]

Realone, I take some umbrage to your statement regarding my "knowing what I am looking at" in regards to the flying eagle cent which was bagged by NGC for altered surfaces. I have been collecting for nearly 50 years and feel that I probably can judge a coin's surfaces with some reliable degree of accuracy. I have been collecting cents, two cents and half cents since 1954. This is especially true when the coin is an AU58-RB cent with regular surfaces and natural brown toning hues containing no chemically induced coloration (ie, MS70 lavender).

 

BTW, the coin got by Rick Snow and his minions as he was the dealer who originally sold it to me.

 

 

Oldtrader,

I cannot figure out what you are referring to, what flying eagle, what are you speaking about. I am talking about a coin that I was considering buying that a dealer said was an MS65 and ncg gave a ms62 and pcgs said was altered surfaces. Needless to say I didn't buy it, but please tell me what you are talking about I am interested.

[Oldtrader3]

I was referring to your statement that "I probably spent too long looking at the flea speck spot and missed the reason that the coin was BB'ed for". The cent was bought from Rick Snow as choice AU. I assume that someone looked at the coin when Eagle Eye acquired it and listed it for sale at $500. The flying eagle cent passed their criteria inspection and my cursory one when I bought the coin.

 

About two years later I sent the coin to NGC for grading and it was BB'ed. The thing that I did wrong was assume that the expertise of Rick Snow and his cohorts would screen well enough to not pass a $500.00 raw coin that would be BB'ed as altered surfaces by NGC.

 

Shame on me for being naive and shame on Eagle Eye coins for selling an expensive, raw, clunker. This same scenario has happened to me on four separate occasions. All instances were with well regarded national dealers who have extensive expertise in the coin the I bought from them.

 

I the bottom line for me in: don't buy sight-unseen raw coins from ANYONE! I won't go so far as to say that these dealers knew about the issues with each of these raw coins. Though one wonders if taking a loss on a coin that you bought may influence the temptation to turn it to some other unsuspecting collector. Some folks believe that greed is good and has it's price but I'm not accusing anyone in this or any of these instances.

[RareSov]

Ahh the glass comment brings back memories. Glass "flows". Apparently if you leave glass long enough, it will be thick at the bottom because of this.

 

Totally agree with the raw coin comment above. Raw is risk.

[realone]

Oldtrader,

I am not asking for you to tell me what I said , i am asking you to show me where that original thread was if you are able to. I can't find it:(

[Oldtrader3]

Real One, It was post #4, page 2. No big deal, I just wanted to expand on the topic a little.

[Smilie Puss]

RareSolv:

 

Exactly. That glass or beaker on the table will eventually be a puddle. That's assuming the the table exists when this observation is made.

 

Raw coin evaluation is risky to be sure. This is why, I think, TPGS's came into being in the first place. However, how many collectors evaluate and purchase the holder and not the coin in the holder? (thumbs u

[WoodenJefferson]

There are others that agree with your assumption in regards to the "orange peel" effect on coins...improper annealing seems to be the culprit, 3:1 in opinions.

 

Now I have a question about gold planchets. Why does a gold planchet need to be annealed in the first place?

 

I would assume that the malleable gold would be rather easy to strike up, or does it become work hardened also?

[realone]

Real One, It was post #4, page 2. No big deal, I just wanted to expand on the topic a little.

 

 

Oldtrader,

no problem but could you please give me the title of the thread, I couldn't find it on page #2 post #4 it may have moved, thanks!

[RareSov]

Gold is too soft. I would assume you need to anneal or you would get sloppy letters or something ? They are striking with tons of force, so you want hard metal not soft

[Smilie Puss]

WJ

 

In metallurgy a coinage metal alloy has a state known as its 'dead soft' point. For the gold/copper alloy this is at a certain annealing temperature. If you recall annealing reduces strain between grain boundaries of the copper and gold enriched areas. Think of hemoginized milk. The fat content (nonpolar) remains suspended in water (polar) solution rather than rising to the top. However, this may not be a good analogy.

 

Ok. So far so good?

 

Now inorder to produce a great quanity of gold (or any coinage metal) coins the Mint wants to conserve the striking die surface's due to erosion caused during the strike by the movement of metal in the planchet from one area to another to produce a coin. This erosion is minimal if the gold alloy is at its 'dead soft' point.

 

In addition, if the planchet is correctly annealed (dead soft) the surface characteristics of the minted coin produces that cartwheel or prooflike effect that we all know and love.

 

If it is not correctly annealed (too high a temperature) then 'orang peel' may result in the field surface.

 

If the annealing temperature is too low then there is more die erosion and leads to die failure due to a process known as 'work hardening' . The dies become brittle and begin to crack and fragment due to the physical force's they undergo.

 

Verstehensie? Jawohl?

[realone]

Real One, It was post #4, page 2. No big deal, I just wanted to expand on the topic a little.

 

 

Oldtrader,

no problem but could you please give me the title of the thread, I couldn't find it on page #2 post #4 it may have moved, thanks!

 

Oldtrader,

hope you are reading this thread, if you could please furnish the title of the thread that you are speaking of, that would help better than a changing location, thanks!

[RareSov]

Nice info

[Smilie Puss]

RareSov:

 

Thank you. This my gift to all that read this board message. Its a free exchange of ideas that undego peer review and critique so that we all can be informed and pass this information along.

 

As Deepak Chopra says somewhere in his publications that the Universe is made of two basic things, Energy and Information. Energy can exist in many forms (matter is one and light is another) and information also exists in many forms such as the blueprint (genitic code) from which you are made. The mind process this energy and information and makes the world as we sense it to be and is passed on form generation to generation. The gift of the Universe is in my awareness and sees you orginating from the same source. What I give I also receive.

 

Something to think about! Yes?

[Oldtrader3]

Real One, it was this thread. Now I'm not sure who's confused, me or you?

[RareSov]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but the No Grade booklet is freely available online, one click

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/pdf/nograde.pdf

[Smilie Puss]

RareSov:

 

Yes. From my beginning Post (1/30/09) I used the NGS definition of "Altered Surface". I do have the book thank you.

 

From NGC's Understanding "No Grade" Coins, a definition of Altered Surfaces is given: "A coin that has been treated in some way that changes its gereral appearance is said to have ALTERED SURFACES. A coins surface can be altered in many ways,......". The article goes on to mention a few of the methods that cause [physical] alteration such as whizzing, polishing [by machine or hand] or [chemical] alteration such as "fill in" substances such as lacquer [wax or oil]. PVC contamination may also be included as a surface contaminate but not considered as a "fill in" substance yet the surface has been altered. Its a matter of degree [not kind] of observable alteration. Rainbow toning may also be considered as surface alteration. Is rainbow toning different than 'as minted condition' to compare as to its gereral appearance? Altered Surfaces indicate something that was done to the coins surface inorder to deceive or hide impefections caused by mis-handling.or abuse. Does NCS know the method of alteration in all cases?

 

From the response by NCS (Chriss) was the answer he gave to the question asked.

 

"It is true that coins that have been improperly cleaned, whizzed, polished, and the like have altered surfaces. A coin in an NCS holder that has had a specific treatment of whizzing, cleaning, polishing, or the like will have that specific problem mentioned. Coins that are in NCS holders with "altered surfaces" most often are coins that have had their surfaces specifically altered in a way to make them appear to be something they are not. Most often this is a treatment to either the devices or fields to give the appearance of a cameo proof."

 

Chris, NCS

 

This mentions, "Most often this is a treatment to either the devices or fields to give the appearance of a cameo proof."

 

Now what about the remaining treatments? How good are you at mind reading? I myself am terrible!

[RareSov]

Because they are stuck with looking at the end result, it would not be possible to always know the method.

 

Is the method used to doctor a coin really important ? pretty fine line to both going there. The end result and the fact the coin is not original is what matters

 

I do agree it would be nice to know more in some cases, it's always nice to know things

[Smilie Puss]

Is the method used to doctor a coin really important ?

 

Yes the' modus operandi' is useful in determining who may be resopnsible for this practice. It exposes how it can be done so that we become aware of the practice and perhaps catch the two faced ferret in the act. But more to the point it doesn't change anything but its always nice to know. Its all part of detection and avoidence.

[realone]

Real One, it was this thread. Now I'm not sure who's confused, me or you?

 

 

I keep looking for a photograph of a FEC that I made a comment on but see nothing in this thread, where is the photo of the FEC?