Original raw coins on Ebay

[MarkFeld]

I know I have seen many CBH's that were encapsulated either by PCGS & NGC that had been wiped or dipped long ago. I think if the CBH retoned nicely and without harsh hairlines PCGS & NGC gave them the nod. I do not think PCGS & NGC are quite so lenient with other (Morgan's, Lincolns, etc.). Like someone stated before as "market acceptable". Am I off base on this one?

 

Dean

I think the grading companies ARE just as lenient with many other types of coins with respect to grading/encapsulating dipped coins.

[Mark T]

If this discussion was on Raw coins most of us would agree that the majority being sold on EBAY are cleaned and doctored, if you were a smart buyer you would bid accordingly. When it comes to a certified coin you take a lot of risk out of equation. I have looked at hundreds of Bust Halves on Heritage, some with some pretty interesting colors, all certified. If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description. There is no way that anyone can guarantee 100 % that a coin, especially a coin less then MS 60 has not been dipped at some point in its life. I will admit to that. So as a buyer I have to put my trust someplace, and that is with the TPG. If you have 100 people looking at a certified coin I would bet at least 80 % of those people would not question the validity of the grade or the coins originality. As a seller of the coin I only care about the 80 % . My point on this is simple. If the coin is certified by a top tier TPG there will be a market for it. I will assume that one of the reasons we purchase coins is for the potential of making money on it, if and when we decide to sell it.

 

I have pictures of some of my Busts in the registry.

Comments are more then welcome.

 

[TomB]

If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description.

That is absolutely, totally and completely incorrect. There are thousands upon thousands of dipped coins in NGC and PCGS slabs and it is an unusual event, indeed, when someone selling one of these coins mentions that the subject coin has been dipped. Heritage makes little effort to describe such actions.

[okbustchaser]

You never saw my coins so how would you know they are not original ?? Are going to tell me that you are one of those who thinks they can grade and authenticate coins better then PCGS or NGC ?? So according to you almost all Bust Halves have been cleaned at some point in their life cycle ? I have been collecting long enough to have a pretty good idea if a coin has been doctored if it is raw. I have a lot more confidence that a top tier TPG would know how to spot one also.

 

You are correct. I haven't ever seen your coins--at least after you bought them. After 30+ years of rabidly collecting bust silver I very well may have seen some or even most of them prior to your purchase. But, that actually has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that you have no way of knowing what happened to them before you owned them. The FACT is that the huge majority of early silver has been dipped--slabbed or otherwise. If you choose to ignore that it is your perogative. That, however, doesn't make it any less the truth.

 

As for telling you that I can grade better than PCGS or NGS when it comes to bust halves then yes, I CAN. So can any other long time specialist in the series. That has nothing to do with the question at hand either. We were discussing originality not grades.

[Mark T]

If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description.

That is absolutely, totally and completely incorrect. There are thousands upon thousands of dipped coins in NGC and PCGS slabs and it is an unusual event, indeed, when someone selling one of these coins mentions that the subject coin has been dipped. Heritage makes little effort to describe such actions.

 

You are wrong Tom .

They will make reference if they think a coin has been dipped. I was looking at a MS60 Bust that was certified by NGC , the description from Heritage was that the coin was dipped. Bowers will also make reference to problems on a coin.

From what I have seen they make comments on a coin if they feel it is not fully original.

 

Here is the coin :

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=529&src=pr#PHOTO

 

[TomB]

If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description.

That is absolutely, totally and completely incorrect. There are thousands upon thousands of dipped coins in NGC and PCGS slabs and it is an unusual event, indeed, when someone selling one of these coins mentions that the subject coin has been dipped. Heritage makes little effort to describe such actions.

 

You are wrong Tom .

They will make reference if they think a coin has been dipped. I was looking at a MS60 Bust that was certified by NGC , the description from Heritage was that the coin was dipped. Bowers will also make reference to problems on a coin.

From what I have seen they make comments on a coin if they feel it is not fully original.

 

Here is the coin :

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=529&src=pr#PHOTO

Yes, Heritage made a reference to this particularly obvious example, but it is not their policy to do such. The more you write in this thread, the more I am beginning to realize that you might not grasp some of the unwritten subtelties of this hobby-industry.

[Mark T]

You never saw my coins so how would you know they are not original ?? Are going to tell me that you are one of those who thinks they can grade and authenticate coins better then PCGS or NGC ?? So according to you almost all Bust Halves have been cleaned at some point in their life cycle ? I have been collecting long enough to have a pretty good idea if a coin has been doctored if it is raw. I have a lot more confidence that a top tier TPG would know how to spot one also.

 

You are correct. I haven't ever seen your coins--at least after you bought them. After 30+ years of rabidly collecting bust silver I very well may have seen some or even most of them prior to your purchase. But, that actually has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that you have no way of knowing what happened to them before you owned them. The FACT is that the huge majority of early silver has been dipped--slabbed or otherwise. If you choose to ignore that it is your perogative. That, however, doesn't make it any less the truth.

 

As for telling you that I can grade better than PCGS or NGS when it comes to bust halves then yes, I CAN. So can any other long time specialist in the series. That has nothing to do with the question at hand either. We were discussing originality not grades.

 

 

I have been collecting for 40 years on and off. When it comes to any type of collectible be it coins , antiques , stamps, etc the amount of arrogance by certain people amazes me. I am glad you think you are a better grader the best at PCGS or NGC . It is total insignificant to the big picture and why people like me purchase Certified coins. I want to make sure I can sell them and not have to worry about the grade assigned or the originality of the coin. In my example you would be one of those in the 20 % category , I only care about the other 80 % . I know plenty about dipped and cleaned coins, the majority of the coins I purchased when I was a kid were dipped, whizzed or brush cleaned. Back in the 60’s and 70’s it was rampant.

So if it your opinion that the majority of those beautiful certified AU – MS coins being sold are dipped that’s fine with me. There sure is a good market for them !!

 

 

 

[TomB]

I wanted to write something else to MarkT before we start to speak past one another. This is the following-

 

Although I am one of the "old" members on these boards and MarkT is one of the "new" members on these boards, it is entirely possible that we have nearly the same experience in numismatics and may draw from a roughly equivalent knowledge base. It is also entirely possible that MarkT has purchased his coins carefully over the years with an eye on quality, value and originality such that if I were to see his coins in-hand I might absolutely love the group. It is further possible, and even likely, that MarkT and I hold dear to us many of the same qualities regarding coins we add to our respective collections.

 

My only issue thus far with MarkT is my interpretation of his posts in that they appear to downplay the possiblility of a dipped or otherwise altered coin in a PCGS or NGC holder, or that such coins are routinely described as having been altered when offered for sale. Of course, I am open to the possibility that I am reading too much into these posts from MarkT and this is one of the main problems with text-based communication since it takes away much of the subtlety of verbal communication.

 

So, let's see if we can communicate with each other before we start to speak past one another. By the way, if you have a link to your registry sets I would love to see your coins because I like nice coinage. My link to my set should be in my signature line. (thumbs u

[Mark T]

If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description.

That is absolutely, totally and completely incorrect. There are thousands upon thousands of dipped coins in NGC and PCGS slabs and it is an unusual event, indeed, when someone selling one of these coins mentions that the subject coin has been dipped. Heritage makes little effort to describe such actions.

 

You are wrong Tom .

They will make reference if they think a coin has been dipped. I was looking at a MS60 Bust that was certified by NGC , the description from Heritage was that the coin was dipped. Bowers will also make reference to problems on a coin.

From what I have seen they make comments on a coin if they feel it is not fully original.

 

Here is the coin :

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=529&src=pr#PHOTO

Yes, Heritage made a reference to this particularly obvious example, but it is not their policy to do such. The more you write in this thread, the more I am beginning to realize that you might not grasp some of the unwritten subtelties of this hobby-industry.

 

 

I understand the hobby very well. If I got caught up in all the subtleties of this hobby I would probably never purchase a coin. I don’t think you fully understand the business end of the hobby. It looks like you are another one in the 20 % category. Maybe you and Okbustchaser should start a new

TPG :-}

 

 

 

[Mark T]

I wanted to write something else to MarkT before we start to speak past one another. This is the following-

 

Although I am one of the "old" members on these boards and MarkT is one of the "new" members on these boards, it is entirely possible that we have nearly the same experience in numismatics and may draw from a roughly equivalent knowledge base. It is also entirely possible that MarkT has purchased his coins carefully over the years with an eye on quality, value and originality such that if I were to see his coins in-hand I might absolutely love the group. It is further possible, and even likely, that MarkT and I hold dear to us many of the same qualities regarding coins we add to our respective collections.

 

My only issue thus far with MarkT is my interpretation of his posts in that they appear to downplay the possiblility of a dipped or otherwise altered coin in a PCGS or NGC holder, or that such coins are routinely described as having been altered when offered for sale. Of course, I am open to the possibility that I am reading too much into these posts from MarkT and this is one of the main problems with text-based communication since it takes away much of the subtlety of verbal communication.

 

So, let's see if we can communicate with each other before we start to speak past one another. By the way, if you have a link to your registry sets I would love to see your coins because I like nice coinage. My link to my set should be in my signature line. (thumbs u

 

 

Yes Tom you are reading into my posts a little to deeply.

I never said that it was not possible for a dipped coin to make it into a TPG holder. As Okbustchaser said there really is no fool proof way of knowing if a coin was dipped over 100 years ago. You and I could look at a raw coin and come up with totally opposite conclusions about the coin. At least when it is slabbed a lot of the guessing work has been taken out of the equation.

Anyway I think we all made our points here and I do respect both you and Okbustchasers opinions.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

If Heritage Thinks one of the certified coins has been dipped they will note it in the description.

That is absolutely, totally and completely incorrect. There are thousands upon thousands of dipped coins in NGC and PCGS slabs and it is an unusual event, indeed, when someone selling one of these coins mentions that the subject coin has been dipped. Heritage makes little effort to describe such actions.

 

You are wrong Tom .

They will make reference if they think a coin has been dipped. I was looking at a MS60 Bust that was certified by NGC , the description from Heritage was that the coin was dipped. Bowers will also make reference to problems on a coin.

From what I have seen they make comments on a coin if they feel it is not fully original.

 

Here is the coin :

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=529&src=pr#PHOTO

Yes, Heritage made a reference to this particularly obvious example, but it is not their policy to do such. The more you write in this thread, the more I am beginning to realize that you might not grasp some of the unwritten subtelties of this hobby-industry.

I agree wholeheartedly with all that Tom has said here. And by the way, you might not know me from Adam, but I say that as a former NGC grader.

 

Edited to add:

I am glad you think you are a better grader the best at PCGS or NGC

Tom didn't indicate that. The fact that he, I or someone else opines that many coins in NGC and PCGS holders have been dipped doesn't indicate anything about our thinking we can grade better than them. We're not claiming that they weren't aware of the dipping, only that they found it to be acceptable with respect to grading and encapsulating such coins.

[Mark T]

There are a lot of smart people on this Forum you being one of them Mark.

After corresponding with Tom via private message and looking at his web site I can see he has an abundance of knowledge also. I joined this forum to learn and share not to fight. Can you shed a little more light on what NGC considers acceptable when it comes to dipping ?

 

[MarkFeld]

There are a lot of smart people on this Forum you being one of them Mark.

After corresponding with Tom via private message and looking at his web site I can see he has an abundance of knowledge also. I joined this forum to learn and share not to fight. Can you shed a little more light on what NGC considers acceptable when it comes to dipping ?

Mark, my feeling is that generally speaking, the major grading companies will grade/encapsulate dipped silver and gold coinage, so long as it is not over-dipped to the point of diminishing the luster substantially and/or causing the coin to look too unnatural. And even having said that, I have seen some extremely unnatural looking coins get slabbed. That's about as specific as I can get, while trying to answer your question in a way that covers many or most coins.

 

I purposely excluded copper and nickel coins in my answer above, because they react differently to dipping and are more volatile than gold and silver coins. Thus, in the case of nickel coins, and to a far greater extent, copper coins, examples that have obviously been dipped are far less likely to get graded/holdered than with silver and gold coins.

 

I am glad that you and Tom have corresponded and I compliment you on your openmindedness. (thumbs u

[Conder101]

If you have 100 people looking at a certified coin I would bet at least 80 % of those people would not question the validity of the grade or the coins originality.

I would agree, because one of the results of the TPG is the majority of collectors now never bother to learn how to grade and just blindly accept the TPG grade, especially from the top two services. It's amazing how much money wasted on dogs in the top two TPGs slabs every year because the collectors just blindly accept what the labels say. But it is good for the people who are mostly interested in selling their coins later for a profit, because that 80% who won't question the services will still be out there.

 

So if it your opinion that the majority of those beautiful certified AU – MS coins being sold are dipped that’s fine with me. There sure is a good market for them !!

There sure is, but that doesn't mean they are original.

 

I will assume that one of the reasons we purchase coins is for the potential of making money on it, if and when we decide to sell it.

For some people, not all of us.

[TJ'S Coins]

Back to your original questions. Yes one can find original raw coins on Ebay. There are some honest dealers and I do not hesitate to purchase from them. There are many others who sell cleaned, over-graded and otherwise poor examples.

Many of us learn by trial and error. As a rule of thumb, when purchasing from someone new, I have more confidence if they are a PNG member. I have also come to trust many of the fine sellers who post to these boards.

Whenever possible, it is much better to view a coin in hand before making the purchase.

[shirohniichan]

The second to the last US coin I bought raw off of eBay that was correctly graded was a 1916 Barber dime I got from "Mike Bagby" in Texas about 10 years ago. I know this because I found the receipt I used as a book marker and recently discovered. The seller graded it as "Ch BU" and PCGS said "MS63".

 

The last two I got were 1875 and 1876 double dimes from a seller I don't remember about 6 years ago. I took a gamble and it paid off. The seller was a private party who claimed to have inherited a collection. At first I was suspicious and let a number of coins go by without a bid until my curiosity got the better of me. I'm glad I got the two I did.

 

Since then I've only found a few I gambled on but have had to return them. I don't think I want to play any more. There are all kinds of stories out there but apparently very few problem-free coins.

[Mark T]

If you have 100 people looking at a certified coin I would bet at least 80 % of those people would not question the validity of the grade or the coins originality.

I would agree, because one of the results of the TPG is the majority of collectors now never bother to learn how to grade and just blindly accept the TPG grade, especially from the top two services. It's amazing how much money wasted on dogs in the top two TPGs slabs every year because the collectors just blindly accept what the labels say. But it is good for the people who are mostly interested in selling their coins later for a profit, because that 80% who won't question the services will still be out there.

 

So if it your opinion that the majority of those beautiful certified AU – MS coins being sold are dipped that’s fine with me. There sure is a good market for them !!

There sure is, but that doesn't mean they are original.

 

I will assume that one of the reasons we purchase coins is for the potential of making money on it, if and when we decide to sell it.

For some people, not all of us.

 

 

I will never claim to be an expert at grading Bust Halves but I can usually tell a properly graded slab from a poorly graded one. After much correspondence with Tom as well as my own research on the dipping topic I will concede that it does appear that many slabbed coins have been dipped. Check out my registry , I think you will find my 1821 Bust and 1838 Reeded Bust as great looking fully original coins.

My 1830 would be a candidate for a dipped coin because of the toning. I think the 1827

Bust is original , the scan does not pick up the color properly. The 1835 has some interesting Mottled toning , it may have been a dipper.

The dipping does not concern me as I think there will always be a market for these types of coins. Conder do you have a registry of your coins ??

 

 

 

[Conder101]

No I do not. I do not buy slabbed coins nor will I have anything to do with supporting the TPG's so I don't submit coins. Also I don't bother to try to get high grade specimens of the coins I collect because I collect strictly for my own enjoyment and have no concern about their future value. I strive more for completeness and my personal aesthetic enjoyment than for value. So my collection is not high grade but it is extensive with over 22,000 different pieces, types. or varieties. I will sometimes even replace a coin in my collection with a lower grade coin if I like its color or surfaces better. Just recently I replaced a MS Conder token in my collection with a VF because I liked the color better.

[Mark T]

I like my Bust Halves Au55- Au58 . I would not hesitate to pick up a lower grade coin if I liked the look of it. I have a couple of heavily circulated Busties that were dug up in a neighbor’s yard when I was a kid. I think I traded him some Washington Quarters for those coins. I have no intentions of selling them because many of the coins that I owned since the late 60’s and early 70’s carry a lot of sentimental value. You and I will disagree on Raw VS Certified so I will just say I feel better purchasing a certified coin over Internet and leave it at that. I have a local dealer I trust, I would not hesitate to purchase a raw coin from him as they are accurately graded and original. This dealer is well know and highly respected. I fully understand the whole TPG Grading game. I would compare it to stock market, understanding the game and how to play it is very important. I am what you would call a casual Day Trader, I run a home based business and Day Trade part time for fun. I would consider most of my trades as Fr2 – Ag3 !!

[Connecticoin]

The percentage of raw coins on ebay that are craap is probably well above 90%, and of the types I have been hunting lately (Walkers and early Commems), that percentage is probably closer to 99%.

 

However, because of the sheer volume of listings on eBay, you can still find those "diamonds in the rough"

 

 

30 1 13560356 9449 1936 50C York US MS67

[stgecko]

I have purchased some bad coins and sent them back. I have never been banned from buying from a seller.

 

This is my first time for being banned. I don't like it.

 

How did you leave his feedback - Probably good You can make an addition to that called "Followup feedback"

Make sure to say "If you send a coin back under hos warranty he WILL BAN YOU"

 

At least you can try to protect someone else

 

Regards,

 

Left good feedback w/o any quips. I didn't know there was a follow up feedback but I will use it. I don't want to slight the person but what they did is a bad practice if you ask me. Thanks for letting me know about the follow up so I can help others!

 

 

Left some more feedback. I hope it forewarns someone next time they think about buying from him/her.

[WinstonWare]

The percentage of raw coins on ebay that are craap is probably well above 90%, and of the types I have been hunting lately (Walkers and early Commems), that percentage is probably closer to 99%.

 

However, because of the sheer volume of listings on eBay, you can still find those "diamonds in the rough"

 

I agree with this but it's the same percentages in a coin shop in my experience. It seems en vogue to badmouth ebay but you’ll find the same in dealer shops…

[Connecticoin]

The percentage of raw coins on ebay that are craap is probably well above 90%, and of the types I have been hunting lately (Walkers and early Commems), that percentage is probably closer to 99%.

 

However, because of the sheer volume of listings on eBay, you can still find those "diamonds in the rough"

 

I agree with this but it's the same percentages in a coin shop in my experience. It seems en vogue to badmouth ebay but you’ll find the same in dealer shops…

 

AND on the bourse as well.

 

What is really amazing is that you still see bourse dealers using those nasty PVC soft-flips as well.

[shirohniichan]

AND on the bourse as well.

 

What is really amazing is that you still see bourse dealers using those nasty PVC soft-flips as well.

 

Auctions houses use the PVC flips, also. I've been careless and left my auction winnings alone for months (or even years) without remembering to take them out, rinse in acetone (or MS70 if needed) and put them in inert holders.

 

The pickings at brick and mortar shops and the bourse floor all depends on the dealers. Some feel free to carry mostly cleaned, whizzed, and otherwise worked on coins and others only stock market-acceptable coins. It usually isn't difficult to figure this out rather quickly. On eBay the risk is higher simply because there are so many sellers it's hard to find the needle in the haystack.

[okbustchaser]

Some feel free to carry mostly cleaned, whizzed, and otherwise worked on coins and others only stock market-acceptable coins.

 

If those "cleaned, whizzed, and otherwise worked on coins' sell--and they do or such a dealer wouldn't survive--then they ARE market acceptable. They simply aren't acceptable to you.

[shirohniichan]

Some feel free to carry mostly cleaned, whizzed, and otherwise worked on coins and others only stock market-acceptable coins.

 

If those "cleaned, whizzed, and otherwise worked on coins' sell--and they do or such a dealer wouldn't survive--then they ARE market acceptable. They simply aren't acceptable to you.

 

Au contraire-- they are acceptable to me when they are sold as such. I use "fillers" for coin displays when I don't want expensive coins left vulnerable to theft.

 

The problem I have is when sellers offer polished VF coins as "EF" or otherwise try to trick the buyer. One of the reasons I've had such a hard time finishing my Centennial set in VF grades is that the coins are cleaned and marked as EF or AU.

[stgecko]

Well since I just received a raw eBay coin I thought I'd share it with you all. Let me know what you think as it's my third try at obtaining a good quality 21 Pilgrim.

I don't think you can tell but all the sail lines are present and the detail looks great especially on the ship. The waves on this coin still blow my mind.

[MarkFeld]

Well since I just received a raw eBay coin I thought I'd share it with you all. Let me know what you think as it's my third try at obtaining a good quality 21 Pilgrim.

I don't think you can tell but all the sail lines are present and the detail looks great especially on the ship. The waves on this coin still blow my mind.

Maybe it's just the imaging, but the coin looks semi-prooflike, which is not normal for a Pilgrim, so my guess would be cleaned or polished.

[stgecko]

Mark do you feel it could be graded or would it be bagged by a TPG?

[MarkFeld]

Mark do you feel it could be graded or would it be bagged by a TPG?

IF the images are accurate, my guess is that it would be body-bagged. Are you able to provide a link to the listing and other images? If so, I'd be happy to take a look and comment.